Jesus never had to be born again. His first birth was just fine. He was born perfect.

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." Our birth is different, according to God's word.

Jesus never needed justification. We do.

Jesus was always perfect. But He came to demonstrate HOW to live, to prove that man, in the strength of God, could be an overcomer. The text I've quoted elsewhere, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." John 14:10. The Father wants to live in us, using us as channels of His righteousness. When the bible says the law will be written on our hearts, it doesn't mean it will be written there for us to read, and then act upon. It means it will become one with our wishes, so that in keeping the law, we will be but carrying out our own desires.

The struggle is ALWAYS to get with Jesus - and stay with Him - and SUBMIT to Him to allow Him to will and do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

Jesus fulfilled all righteousness, because we cannot. And He calls us perfect lest we become discouraged by our external performance. He knows the Father sees only His blood, and we are regarded as perfect from day one of our decision to walk with Him. Righteousness is imparted as we grow, and the end of growth is the bearing of fruit. If we, the branches stay attached to the Vine, we will be unable to prevent fruit forming.

How can we possibly know when our behaviour has ceased to be tainted with sin? Our hearts are deceitful. And to imply that perfection equals perfect behaviour, is to miss the most important part of the story - the heart. Only God can cleanse the heart. Growth of a plant into a fruit-bearing mature plant takes time, and is passive. Only the Gardener works. Growth of a Christian into a fruit-bearing mature man or woman of God takes time. Only the Gardener works. Unlike plants, we can uproot ourselves from the source of nourishment, and run away from the Gardener.

Perfection is the way God regards us, because of what Jesus has done for us. And the re-creation of our hearts enables us to demonstrate to the universe that Satan's charges are lies, and that the love of God working in and through us enables the complete outworking of the law. "He guides me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake." Psalm 23:3

Philippians 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." That's "NOTHING".

Jesus is everything.

If perfection does not equal perfect behaviour (thoughts, words and deeds), then in what way was Jesus perfect? If perfection is only imputed, then in what way are we better off than the unconverted person? Is having fewer faults better than having more? Was Adam and Eve in better shape because they only sinned once?

If perfect perfection is only imputed, then what do the following promises of Jesus mean?

ROMANS
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 CORINTHIANS
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

GALATIANS
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

HEBREWS
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 PETER
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 PETER
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 JOHN
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Home Missionary, November 1, 1893, paragraph 12

When one is FULLY emptied of self, when EVERY false god is cast out of the soul, the vacuum is supplied by the inflowing of the Spirit of Christ. Such a one has the faith which works by love and purifies the soul from every moral and spiritual defilement. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter, can work upon the heart, influencing and directing, so that he enjoys spiritual things. He is "after the spirit," and he minds the things of the Spirit. He has no confidence in self; Christ is all in all. Truth is constantly being unfolded by the Holy Spirit; he receives with meekness the engrafted word, and he gives the Lord all the glory, saving, "God has revealed them to us by his Spirit." "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things which are freely given to us of God." The Spirit that reveals, also works in him the fruits of righteousness. Christ is in him "a well of water, springing up into everlasting life." He is a branch of the True Vine, and bears rich clusters of fruit to the glory of God. What is the character of the fruit borne?--"The fruit of the Spirit is love." Mark the words,--love, not hatred; it is joy, not discontent and mourning; peace, not irritation, anxiety and manufactured trials. It is "long-suffering gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance against such there is no law."

When can we expect God to fulfill this promise in our life?

Worshipping perfection is legalism. Perfection doesn't exist apart from Jesus. Get Jesus and you get perfection. Continually seek perfection, and you will lose sight of the only One who is the source.

Protestants qualify one text with another.

"When one is FULLY emptied of self, when EVERY false god is cast out of the soul, the vacuum is supplied by the inflowing of the Spirit of Christ." How does one empty self? By continually approaching Christ. How does one cast false gods out (including the false god of self-manufactured perfection)? By continually approaching Christ. How is the vaccuum supplied? By continually approaching Christ.

"When can we expect God to fulfill this promise in our life?" Some on this board claim it has happened already. Why don't you talk to Him about it?

Zyph

Just want to say I love your last few posts here. Well said.

To all

In terms of "emptying one's self," I wonder, can we even do that?

I will supply some references later; but, as far as I see it; when we have Christ in some area of our mind, or our life; since He is "bigger" than anything such as "self," then He would empty us of self, as we allow Him entrance somewhere. As we let Christ in, He Himself crowds out our "self," and we can rest in Christ, as He gives us the Victory, and because He gives us the Victory.

"He is our sanctification," and we cannot do any sanctifying; we can only obey that in which He directs us to do, or to be:

1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

God Himself, directs our sanctification, through His Son, Jesus Christ; and this is why it is so important to understand prayer, and sanctification, as it relates to the intercession of Christ, and Christian perfection. And, as Dora represented above in the beautiful children's story illustration of the plant; a Christian is "perfect," at any stage of the growth, or sanctification process. If this was not so; then we would be evolutionists, and be guilty of saying that sin gets better; that "sanctification" incrementally improves our salvational status with Jesus.

I know there is another topic on Christ's intercession, but it does not relate to the topic of perfection, in the way I am trying to do it here.

Let us look at this much closer now, and ask:

How is a) emptying of self," and b) our sanctification, related to Christ's intercessory ministry today?

Perhaps another question will answer this:

If Christ intercedes for us now; why would we need Him, if we had to cleanse ourselves of self, before we can be converted?

His ministry both now, and when probation closes, is intimately connected to these lines of thought.

There is a context, in which our sins, ("self"), are a barrier between us and the Savior:

"ST.1892-07-11.007
"There are many in the broad way who are not fully satisfied with the path in which they walk. They long to break from the slavery of sin, and seek to make a stand against their sinful practices in their own strength. They hear the warning call to repentance. They hear that the only hope of the sinner is found in Christ. They look toward the narrow way and strait gate; but selfish pleasure, love of the world, unsanctified ambition and pride, place a barrier between them and the Saviour. They realize that all their idols must be expelled from the soul, that every sinful indulgence must be given up, all worldly encumbrances must be laid aside, in order to enter the strait gate. Jesus says, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

But, there is also a sense, where we let "repentance" become a barrier, betweemn us and the Savior:

RH.1901-09-03.008
It is a mistake to think that you must come to repentance before you can come to Jesus. Come to Christ just as you are, and contemplate His love until your hard heart is broken. "A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." We may say that except the sinner repents of his sin, he cannot be forgiven; but while this is true, let him not put off coming to Christ until he has wrought himself up to a certain pitch of excited feeling, until he thinks his sorrow is of sufficient depth to merit forgiveness. Let the sinner come just as he is, and contemplate the love that has been bestowed upon him, all unworthy as he is; and the first thing he knows, he will realize that Christ's love has broken every barrier down, and that he exercises repentance which is not to be repented of. The sinner must go to Christ in order that he may be enabled to repent. It is the virtue that goes forth from Jesus which strengthens the purposes of the heart to turn away from sin and to cleave to that which is truth. It is Christ's virtue that makes repentance sincere and genuine. It has been stated that him whom Christ pardons He first makes penitent. Peter declares the source of repentance when he says, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

There is only one barrier between us and Christ, that we alone can remove:

RH.1896-03-24.010
"The way has been made clear for all those who choose to hear, repent, and believe. All heaven is waiting the sinner's co-operation, and the only barrier that stands in his way is one which he alone can remove,--his own will. He must submit to the will of God, and through repentance and faith, come unto God for salvation."

So now, let us move a little further, and see how, or if our will still needs to be submitted to God/Jesus, when probation closes. We are asking the question, what is "perfection?" It seems that some say, perfection "arrives" when probation closes; after we are fully converted...but how can we be partly converted???

The Scriptures seem to say that a person is "perfect," and is "converted," only & when, an individual comes to Christ JUST AS THEY ARE.

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Excellent points, David.

Thankyou Zyph

I edited my above post, while you were making your's.

Signed,

Your "perfect" friend,

David

Well, I've always thought so!

"Worshipping perfection is legalism." Amen.

"When one is fully emptied of self, when every false god is cast out of the soul, the vacuum is supplied by the inflowing of the Spirit of Christ." What do the words "when" mean in this passage? Seems to me that they mean "when" one is fully emptied of self and "when" every false god is cast out of the soul THEN the vacuum is supplied by the inflowing of the Spirit of Christ. I don't get the idea that the Holy Spirit replaces sin with righteousness AS self is being emptied.

Zyph wrote:
"When can we expect God to fulfill this promise in our life?" Some on this board claim it has happened already. Why don't you talk to Him about it?

Excellent suggestion. I think you would agree that we are counted perfect in a legally declared sense when we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. So hopefully everybody on this board is already perfect.

But I suspect you are insinuating that it's ludicrous for anybody to claim Jesus' promises of perfection in the intrinsic sense of the word? That is, it is premature for anyone to believe that Jesus is fulfilling His promises in their life here and now. But what about these promises:

ROMANS
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 CORINTHIANS
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

HEBREWS
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 JOHN
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 JOHN
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

David, does Jesus apply the benefits of His blood to atone for unconfessed and unforsaken pet darling sin, or any other moral imperfection we refuse to lay aside?

If not, then why are we so hesitant to take the promises of Jesus literally? Since their is no excuse for committing a known sin, why can't we take His promises exactly the way they read?

Also, can you name a moral imperfection which a Spirit-filled, born again, converted believer can commit unwittingly?