Charlene.

I believe that justification that brought life to all men is Christ imputed righteousness that was given as a free gift. Sanctification is Christ imparted righteousness that will be ours if we live by faith and according to the Spirit. The first is men’s ticket to heaven and the second is our fitness for heaven.

When you have both, God will justify you because of your faith in Him, this is called justification by faith.

The question is: Does keeping and obeying the Ten Commandments shows our faith in Him? Or does a life by the Spirit without the law shows our faith in Him? Before men both have the same result, a law keeper and a Spirit led believer have the same deeds, but god see the motive in our heart. And I believe that the Spirit led believer conforms with god standard and request, they have love as fruit of the Spirit.

In His love

James S.

Well James, that's as clear as can be . May I recap what I think you are saying?

1. You say you are an Adventist still, yet you feel that Ellen White is not God's messenger and was unreliable since "I saw some contradiction according to the mood or faith she was in when she wrote these books." Gee...how do you understand someone's moods so well?

2.Of course being christian has nothing to do with registration in a church; this everyone here would agree with. It is a bit fuzzy to me from your letter whether you still attend a SDA church.
But I don't think that matters considering the circumstances you are under.

3. You claim some "new insight" about the law that sounds exactly like the same lines from any other Protestant school of thought. As an ex- catholic and perhaps once a legalist Adventist, this would be liberating news for you. But, I can't find anything earthshaking in any of it.

4. I know I cannot keep the law; I know that only Christ in me can. I just stay out of His way.
End of controversy.

Thank you for clearing this all up for me!

Now I know better where you really stand.

[ June 14, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Ikan ]

Pastor Ikan.

Well James, that's as clear as can be . May I recap what I think you are saying?

1. You say you are an Adventist still, yet you feel that Ellen White is not God's messenger and was unreliable since "I saw some contradiction according to the mood or faith she was in when she wrote these books." Gee...how do you understand someone's moods so well?

Unquote.

By comparing her writings to the bible and use the bible as the basic of all truth.

I am not comparing the bible to EGW writings and take her writings as the standard of truth.

2.Of course being christian has nothing to do with registration in a church; this everyone here would agree with. It is a bit fuzzy to me from your letter whether you still attend a SDA church.
But I don't think that matters considering the circumstances you are under.

I used the same method once used by Paul (read ……

3. You claim some "new insight" about the law that sounds exactly like the same lines from any other Protestant school of thought. As an ex- catholic and perhaps once a legalist Adventist, this would be liberating news for you. But, I can't find anything earthshaking in any of it.

Are you sure I presented exactly the same teaching as what is presented by Protestants and Pentecost churches? What I know SDA is alike with them, all teaching the Ten Commandments as a Christian standard for living, judgment and righteousness, but SDA is superior because they keep all the ten.

4. I know I cannot keep the law; I know that only Christ in me can. I just stay out of His way.
End of controversy.

I wonder how you read my “new insight”? You must wrote “I know I can not keep the law; I know that only Christ in me can. I just stay out of the way of the law in order I might be in Him by faith.”

I know where I stand, “in Christ.”

In His love

James S.

Mike Lowe

posted June 13, 2002 11:34 AM

Perhaps we are misunderstanding James? I don't hear him saying that we are free to sin. He is saying that in Christ we are free from sin. He does have a strange of way of looking at the relationship between the law and condemnation. But I don't believe he is saying we are free to sin.

In essence, I hear James saying that if we keep the law we are condemned, but if we keep the faith we are saved. Which is true. He is speaking against law keeping as the means and method of our salvation. Which is also true. And he is very quick to agree that if we are in Christ, then our life will be in harmony with the principles of the law.

Unquote.

You are absolutely right!

Thanks Mike for your clarification.

In his love

James S.

I guess I'm just really dense because there is a dichotomy in the words of James Saptenno that cannot be resolved.

If Christ is in him (James) keeping the law, then how is James not keeping the law? And if James is keeping the law he is condemned to death, for keeping the 10 commandments will kill us according to James.

James, can Christ be in you keeping the law, and yet law keeping kill you? If Jesus kept the law why doesn't it kill Him too? You have stated again and again that it is sin that makes us want to keep the law. So if it is sin that makes us want to keep the law, then it is sin that caused Christ to keep the law for He is human too.

You have a very basic dichotomy in your thinking that, to me at least, cannot be resolved.

James,

When Christ is in you keeping the law is He in His own little enclosed area doing all the law keeping, and you are a separate entity from Him doing all your lawbreaking?

Imagine three circles, one large one, with two smaller ones inside that one. The large one is your body. The two smaller ones as one being your spiritual thinking and actions, and the other being Christ keeping the law. Is this how you see it?

Christ is in you, but doesn't really affect you and your actions because He is in His own distinct place doing his law keeping that doesn't affect you and your actions and you motivations?

The way you describe things this is the only kind of mental picture I can draw from your words.

The mental picture I draw from people like Charlene, IKan, and Mike Lowe is that that there is one large circle that is our body. And inside that circle we see us, and we see Christ living in us. As Christ lives in us He is not separate from us and our actions unless we make Him to be. So when Christ is keeping the law so are we. When Christ has the correct motivations to keep the law, those motivations are given to us also. Christ is not put into His own little corner inside us to do His lawkeeping, but His lawkeeping affects each and every part of us and allows us to keep the law too. Christ in me, and I in Christ. It takes both parts to make the whole.

James:Well, I will make one more attempt. Since you have a Dutch surname, I'll try Dutch first.

Vriend James,
Ik ben bang dat jouw Engels voor mij te verwarrend is om je te beantwoorden of opmerkingen te geven. Je spreekt jezelf constant tegen. Anderen op dit forum begrijpen er ook weinig meer van. Misschien is het beter als je jouw ideeën vertelt aan een groep mensen die jouw taal wel kunnen spreken.

Now English:

Friend John: I am afraid your English is much too confusing for me to answer this or future remarks. You contradict yourself constantly. It certainly has left others on this forum quite confused too. Perhaps you should consider giving your ideas to a group in your native language.

What James is saying is in harmony with the what Paul wrote:

Galatians
3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We can argue Paul is talking about the ceremonial law and not the moral law of ten commandments, but EGW wrote that he's talking about all law. The law cannot save us, it only condemns us and points us to Jesus as our Saviour.

To be under the law is to be under the condemnation of the law as a law breaker. We are law breakers if we are trying to obey the law in order to be saved. Obedience has nothing to with whether or not we deserve salvation.

Our obedience or disobedience does not determine our eternal destiny. Rather accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour is what determines our eternal destiny. The law merely points us to Jesus, and once we accept Him the law has served its purpose.

Once in the care of Jesus' loving embrace He writes the law in our hearts and minds so that by faith, and not by law keeping, our experience is in harmony with the holy, just and good principles of the law, which exceeds the "Thou shalt not..." elements of the law itself.

By faith we also become partakers of the divine nature which empowers us to not only live in harmony with the law, but it also empowers us to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. According Rom 6:18 "obedience [leads] unto righteousness," which clearly means that obedience is not the same as righteousness.

Obedience is not violating the principles of the law, whereas righteousness is maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Thus, faith enables us to experience more than just not violating the law. This distinction is important. We must learn that faith is more than law keeping. That's what Paul is trying to say in Galatians.

Mike,
How do you reconcile James saying that his theology differs with what Ellen White says, so he says he rejects Ellen White.

Doesn't Ellen's writtings harmonize with the Bible? If so, wouldn't James' theology also harmonize with Ellen? But he says it does not.