Couldn't have said it any better myself, ladies!! Bravo! That's rightly divided the Word.
Charlene and Avalee; from both sides of the country, you have let freedom (the REAL freedom) ring, from sea to shining sea.
We are prisoners sprung from the jail of Sin, because of the sins we have loved to commit. We are released into the Custody of Christ, on probation.

No man can rightly present the law of God without the gospel, or the gospel without the law. The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears.
The Old Testament sheds light upon the New, and the New upon the Old. Each is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Both present truths that will continually reveal new depths of meaning to the earnest seeker.

[ June 17, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Ikan ]

Praise the Lord, for His Word is Life.

James 1:25
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

Just for interest:

Matthew Henry's bible comentary on James 1:25

"In hearing the word, we look into it for counsel and direction, and when we study it, it turns to our spiritual life. Those who keep in the law and word of God, are, and shall be, blessed in all their ways. His gracious recompence hereafter, would be connected with his present peace and comfort. Every part of Divine revelation has its use, in bringing the sinner to Christ for salvation, and in directing and encouraging him to walk at liberty, by the Spirit of adoption, according to the holy commands of God. And mark the distinctness, it is not for his deeds, that any man is blessed, but in his deed. It is not
talking, but walking, that will bring us to heaven. Christ will become more precious to the believer's soul, which by his grace will become more fitted for the inheritance of the saints in
light."

God Bless

Charlene, here's what I wrote about the relationship between salvation and obedience:

"Obedience has nothing to with whether or not we deserve salvation.... Our obedience or disobedience does not determine our eternal destiny."

I did not say that obedience has "nothing" to do with salvation. Of course it does. It's the fruit of our salvation. But it's not the basis of our salvation, nor is disobedience the basis of our damnation.

Jesus is the "root" and basis of our salvation, not the law or law keeping. Jesus is the root of our salvation, and obedience and righteousness are some of the fruit.

"Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth." {DA 489.5}

We are lost or saved based on whether or not we accept Jesus as personal Saviour. Obedience and righteousness is the fruit of our faith in Jesus, not the other way round (i.e., faith in Jesus is not the fruit of obedience and righteousness).

If you agree with this, then we are in harmony. And we are also in harmony with James Septenno. He's saying the same thing (although I admit he says it in a way that comes across misleading).

Gary.

Quote.
I guess I'm just really dense because there is a dichotomy in the words of James Saptenno that cannot be resolved.

If Christ is in him (James) keeping the law, then how is James not keeping the law? And if James is keeping the law he is condemned to death, for keeping the 10 commandments will kill us according to James.
Unquote.

Firstly, Christ in me is not keeping the law for me but changing my self-love character to his own character of love that seeks no self. When I have his love in my heart, I am able to love my fellow men. The deeds of love conforms with the principle of heaven, is that not enough? Why should there be any law to keep and obey. Throw it all away or abolished all law that exist, my deeds will still conforms with the principle of heaven because it comes from a heart that have no self-love in it.

But if I want to keep and obey the Ten Commandments, the law will legally condemns me for my failure in continually keeping it and fulfils it spiritual demands, and the wages for my failure or my sin is death.

Quote.
James, can Christ be in you keeping the law, and yet law keeping kill you? If Jesus kept the law why doesn't it kill Him too? You have stated again and again that it is sin that makes us want to keep the law. So if it is sin that makes us want to keep the law, then it is sin that caused Christ to keep the law for He is human too.
Unquote.

That is what you don’t understand yet. If God said that love is the fulfillment of the law, then having love in your heart will make your deeds in harmony with the law of God even there is no law for you to keep. So was Christ, for Him there is no law he must keep and obey but generated by his love for mankind, his deeds conforms the principle of heaven.

Quote.
You have a very basic dichotomy in your thinking that, to me at least, cannot be resolved.
Unquote.

For law keepers, to understand how to live by faith is something unthinkable. But don’t think, just believe!

Quote.
James,

When Christ is in you keeping the law is He in His own little enclosed area doing all the law keeping, and you are a separate entity from Him doing all your lawbreaking?

Imagine three circles, one large one, with two smaller ones inside that one. The large one is your body. The two smaller ones as one being your spiritual thinking and actions, and the other being Christ keeping the law. Is this how you see it?

Christ is in you, but doesn't really affect you and your actions because He is in His own distinct place doing his law keeping that doesn't affect you and your actions and you motivations?

The way you describe things this is the only kind of mental picture I can draw from your words.
Unquote.

Why is it so difficult to understand the simple way of living by faith?

Love is the fulfillment of the law; when you have the love of God in your heart, your deeds conforms to the principle of the Kingdom of God. But to have this love, you must live by faith and led by the Spirit, because this love is fruit of the Spirit.

Fruit of the Spirit is “the willing and the doing of God” in you, fruit of the Spirit is Christ righteousness that was imparted in your heart, his love that seeks no self.

Forget about the law and it keeping and obedience, you will never understood the way of living by faith if you stick to it.

And again I say, Christ in me didn’t keep the law for me but changing my heart from a selfish love to a love that seeks no self. Can’t you see the very big difference between it?

In His love

James S

Charlene.

Quote.
James 1:25
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."
Unquote.

Do you think that the perfect law of liberty is the Ten Commandment? If you think so give me your reason.

What I know that the perfect law of liberty is not the Ten Commandment because in Paul epistle we found that the ten Commandment is the law that lead to condemnation and death, a law that put us under prison or under the bondage of sin.

In His love

James S.

James:
Nadat ik de honderden posts die je op dit forum heb geplaatst heb gelezen en nadat ik heb gezien dat slechts een persoon het deels met je eens is over wat hij denkt dat je probeert te zeggen, moet ik zeggen dat ik dit spelletje niet meespeel. Als je niet de moeite neemt om naar ze te luisteren, of nog belangrijker de dingen die Mrs White duidelijk heeft gezegd of om zonder oogkappen de bijbel te lezen, dan kan ik je zeker niet helpen. Ik zal voor je blijven bidden, maar ik zal geen onderdeel worden van je publiek. Het zou goed voor je zijn om te leren luisteren naar anderen en te begrijpen dat je Engels niet zo gevorderd is als je denkt. Ik denk dat dit liefde in. Dit is mijn laatste post naar jou.

James,

The Signs of the Times----DT- 10-17-95

Christ teaches that we are to recognize our neighbor in every race and condition of men. No distinction is to be made as to who is our neighbor, on the ground of poverty, or wealth, or position. The followers of Christ are to see their neighbor in any one who needs their help. "All ye are brethren." The Lord has not established a kingdom merely for the rich, and the one essential thing for an entrance into his kingdom is Christlikeness of character. The Lawgiver explained the meaning of the divine precepts, and showed that they were not arbitrary requirements, but that in the doing of them there is life; for Christ from the pillar of cloud had distinctly told them that those who did them should live in them. The Ten Commandments are called in the New Testament the royal law of liberty. In obeying the divine precepts, men will assimilate to the divine character; for the character of God is expressed in his holy law. In substituting their own ideas, in erecting their own standard, they will come to misrepresent the Father and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent, coming far short of Christlikeness of character. In erecting a standard for themselves, they will cling to their own deficiencies, practice their former habits, and fall far below the perfection of Christ's character. But through the grace of Christ, we should ever strive to reach the perfect standard."

James, I point you to the "Most Holy Place" in the heavenly sanctuary. The Law of Liberty, the Ten Commandments are the focus of this Holy Place. Judgement is taking place at this very minute. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life are having their lives measured by the Character of Jesus [the ten commandments]. This is what determines life eternal.....does our characters reflect Christ's character that was written on the tables of stone, on our hearts and manifested in the example of Christ in the flesh and imparted to those that overcome by His blood. If so "pardoned" is written by there names then the sins are blotted out during the time of refreshing/latter rain. If we have failed to develop this Character of Christ, revealed in the ten commandments, then our names are blotted out of the book of life and placed in the book of death.

The ten Commandments/Law of Liberty is as essential to salvation as God Himself, because they are the same.

Mike,

What we will always deserve is eternal death. We never obey so we can deserve eternal life, I have made that clear, however, we will never recieve eternal life if we do not obey. Eternal life is a gift from God but he does have requirements. The screening process for heaven is "how much do you love me and your fellow man? Show me by your works" The top four and the bottom six....all obeyed by faith that works by love and the power of Grace.

IF you love me......keep my commandments. This is a deliberate choice. We choose to give God our wills, but we must continue to give our choices to God, moment by moment, He never takes man's choices away from him.

Manuscript Releases Volume Three----PG- 187
To every man, God has assigned a place in His great plan. By truth or falsehood, by folly or wisdom, each is fulfilling a purpose, bringing about certain results. And each, according as he chooses obedience or disobedience, is deciding his own eternal destiny. To every one is given
freedom to act, and upon every one rests the responsibility for his own actions. But our words and actions must pass the test of God's high
standard, or we shall be bound up with the wicked, to receive an eternal retribution.--Ms 36, 1896, pp. 2-4. ("Obedience the Condition of Success," Dec. 9, 1896.)--Released Feb. 12, 1965.

The Faith I Live By----PG- 71
He who chooses a course of disobedience to God's law is deciding his future destiny; he is sowing to the flesh, earning the wages of sin,
even eternal destruction, the opposite of life eternal. Submission to God and obedience to His holy law bring the sure result. "This is life
eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3.

I don't see this concept in James' presentation nor in your agreement with him.

If there is no law...there is no sin. The law is not against us, it is for us, it brings us to the throne of Grace for enabling power to live it and form the character of Christ.

I repeat...we are only condemned by the law if we are law breakers, not law keepers. The law is Holy, Just and Good......It converts the Soul and continues to always be our guidline/standard.

Charlene, thank you for sticking it out with this study. You are indeed a super trooper.

I have a few questions and comments: Are we saved because we obey the law? I'm sure you would agree that we are saved because of what Jesus has done for us. We are saved by faith and not by works.

But what about the flip side of that question: Are we lost because we disobey the law? You see, if we not saved based on our obedience, then how can we be lost based on our disobedience?

I believe the Bible and SOP clearly teach that salvation is matter of being in Christ, and that damnation is matter of not being in Christ.

We are not saved because we obey the law, instead we are able to obey the law because we are saved. We are not lost because we disobey the law, instead we are unable to obey the law because we are lost.

Obedience is the fruit of being in relationship to Jesus, and disobedience is the fruit of not being relationship to Jesus. Accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour is the root of our salvation, and obedience and righteousness is the fruit. Not accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour is the root of our damnation, and disobedience and unrighteousness is the fruit.

The only way we can keep the law is if we keep the faith. If we attempt to keep the law without faith we are in sin. I know you agree with that. What I don't understand is why you believe James Saptenno and I are saying something wrong. Can you please state what you think we believe that is different from what you believe. Thank you.