Again, here's what Avalee wrote:

"When we with our human power combine it with the divine power of Christ we will be overcomers as Christ did."

Then on page 3 May 29 I wrote:

"I think your statement puts the cart before the horse. Perhaps it's symantics (the curse of the English language), but I believe it would be more accurate to phrase it this way:

"When we consent to allow Jesus to combine His divine nature with our human nature, He can then empower us to overcome as He overcame."

"Do you see the difference? The emphasis is on how Jesus can use us, rather than on how we can use Him." End quote.

Then Edward followed by saying how Avalee had it right, and Charlene agreed, and Avalee thanked them. From this I gathered that you three decided my post missed the mark.

I believe consent counts for cooperation. We do not possess the ability to cooperate with Jesus apart from the power of God. All we can do is consent for Jesus to empower us to cooperate with God. Once we consent and Jesus supplies the power we are then capable of uniting the human and divine resources to obey the law of God.

It all begins with consent, not cooperation. Somewhere EGW wrote that our part of the equation is puny compared to the part Jesus plays, but that puny part is very important.

James -

quote:

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You forget one important thing.

Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin.

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I'm sorry, m'friend; that concept is nothing more than a fanciful Catholic error that has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. It's like saying I'd have to go to the gas chamber for a crime I never personally committed. God is just, and doesn't hold people accountable for crimes, or sins, not actually personally committed. "Original sin" is just another man-made theory designed by the enemy to lead men astray.

You seem to think that before Sinai, the law of God didn't exist; that isn't true either.

Adam sinned. Romans 5:14. Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4. Therefore, Adam transgressed the law. There's no way around that conclusion, without doing great violence to the Bible and its plain meaning. God's law was in existence, and in force, at the Creation, and has been in force ever since. It will always be in force.

"Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." -- Genesis 26:5. Abraham lived some four centuries before Sinai, yet we have this rock-solid statement directly from God Himself that His commandments, statutes, and laws were in force at that time.

"He is the Lord our God: His judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant." Psalm 105:7-10. Jacob likewise lived long before Sinai.

There are many narrative examples in the Pentateuch that show the binding nature of the Ten Commandments long before Sinai.

Noah's son Ham dishonored him (Genesis 9:20-25). >>> "Honor thy father and thy mother." Exodus 20: 12.

Cain killed Abel (Genesis 4:8-16), and was punished for it. >>> "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13.

Joseph's master's wife tried to seduce him, but Joseph said, "How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:9. >>> "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Exodus 20:14.

Regarding the issue of the missing "stolen" cup, Judah said, "God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants." >>> "Thou shalt not steal." Exodus 20:15.

The serpent told Eve a falsehood, and was cursed for it (Genesis 3:4,14). >>> "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Exodus 20:16.

Also before Sinai, "the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?" Exodus 16:28.

It is true that God stated His law in a forceful fashion at Sinai; but it didn't begin then. The Law and the Sabbath had existed for millennia, but Israel had forgotten about the knowledge and worship of the true God. So He gave them a reminder they wouldn't forget. After He made Himself known to them in Egypt -- "In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up Mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up Mine hand unto them, saying, I am the Lord your God" (Ezekiel 20:5) -- He also reminded them about His law: "And madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant." Nehemiah 9:14.

"Where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15. If you're going to say that there was no law before Sinai, then you're also saying that nobody sinned before Sinai; that would make a complete mockery of the Biblical record. Paul plainly wrote, "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23); that includes people who lived before Sinai. It includes every human who's ever lived, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

Once again, I repeat: a spiritual Christian must be subject to the law of God. Any person who is not subject to the law of God is neither spiritual, nor a Christian.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7,8.

That single statement of Paul's so clearly shows the relationship between keeping God's law and being in harmony with Him, that no further comment should even be necessary. But millions of professed Christians the world over ignore this crystal-clear statement; and evidently so are you, James. Mark well what Paul says here: being "not subject to the law of God" is the very same as "enmity against God". "Enmity" means "hate" -- so those who aren't subject to God's law, hate God! That is what the apostle Paul wrote, in language too plain to be misunderstood; and no amount of theological sleight-of-hand maneuvering can change that.

You also wrote,

quote:

---

Since then, the standard of life for a FITNESS for heaven is no longer the written law engraved on stone tablets, but the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”, which is the character of heavenly beings that was created in God’s nature.

---

Again I would direct you to Hebrews 10:16, which, taken together with Jeremiah 31:33, clearly shows that the law that God wants to write in our hearts is the law of Ten Commandments. You're trying to make a separation there, where none exists. The Ten Commandments ARE the law of love. "This is love, that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6. "Love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10.

James, I sincerely hope you can come to see the error in what you're saying. It doesn't square with Scripture, not at all. At every turn there's some new theory that strikes at the heart of "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). I agree with Charlene -- it looks like you're taking a passage here and there, and using it to fit a pre-ordained agenda; all the while completely ignoring a mountain of evidence from a variety of Bible writers, that shows the truth to be pretty far different from what you're proposing.

As far as Ellen White is concerned -- you might notice that I've relied almost exclusively on the Bible here, to show the still-binding claims of God's law. We don't need Ellen White to prove historic SDA doctrines; they can all be shown from the Bible and the Bible alone. But thank God we have Ellen White! She serves as inspired confirmation of the teaching of the pioneers, and fills in some fuzzy spots in our understanding. I'd be very careful about pushing doctrines that contradict what she wrote. Like Charlene said, if you contradict EGW, you're contradicting the Bible too, since the SOP and Scripture are ALWAYS in complete harmony. Setting oneself up as a person who understands the Bible better than an inspired prophet of God did, is presumptuous to say the very least.

Peter wrote of those who "wrest.....scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). Please don't be a part of that group!

Avalee -

Please feel free to save whatever, use it however you see fit. This is a public forum after all, ain't it. Anyway, that comparison of God's character and His law is taken from something I saw years ago in an Amazing Facts tract; at the time I wrote those verse references down on a blank page in the study Bible where they'd always be accessible. All knowledge of such things comes from the Spirit of God to begin with, and should be freely shared, passed on, etc. -- the Holy Spirit is in the public domain!

John.

If you study the bible, you will find out that what you think and believe is wrong. I have explained it well but maybe you overlooked it. So, I will try again.

Romans 5:12-14 (NIV).
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

How could sin enter the world through one man (Adam)? Answer: Through Adam multiplication.
Adam was created in the likeness of God with love that seeks no self in his heart, but since he choused to serve himself, to serve his desire for the flesh; he lost this agape love and changed his heart to the love for self. This love for self becomes Adam’s nature and passed to his descendant’s trough multiplication. This nature becomes all men’s nature. Psalm 51:5 – “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

So, if the bible said that you and me were born sinful, sinful since in the womb of our mother, would you deny this fact and said that there is no “original sin?” What “sin” can a new born baby do? If what you know is only sin we committed when we break the law, then you don’t understand the basic principle of the Gospel of Christ. A newborn baby didn’t and couldn’t commit sin in breaking God’s law, but nevertheless she must die for the wages of sin she brought since her birthdate. What sin is it? It is the sin of self-love that is her nature, a condition of man that is against the nature of God. Self-love is against God’s agape love, a love that seeks no self in it. And since she was born sinful, she will experience death as the wages of sin, a sin she never committed and a death she didn’t deserve.

Before the law was given to Moses at Sinai, sin was already in the world and death came upon all men, even over those who didn’t commit a sin in breaking God’s law (babies). But this sin is not taken into account when there is no law, for that, God must give mankind a written law that has authority over them and can judge them and condemn them for their sin. If there is no law, what is the standard of judgment and condemnation? Men would never know why they must die and questions would be raised against God’s integrity.

All commands given orally by God before Sinai will not judge and condemn man if it didn’t come into effect, and that means when it didn’t come in writings.

So, when the bible said that before Sinai there is no law, it means there is no law that has an authority over us that would judge and condemn us, but nevertheless we die, because we have the sin of self-love, which is our nature that is against God’s nature.

For men to know their sin, the law must be given in writings as from the law come the knowledge of sin. Once they know their sin, they will blame God for this, why did he create them in sin? Only God didn’t create men in sin but in his likeness, so, all men die for the sin they didn’t commit, a death they didn’t deserve.

But God is just and merciful, if he didn’t take an action and leave this to man’s sake, he would become a God that is injustice, unfair, unloving and cruel. Fortunately, we have a God that is abundantly in love, justice and mercy. He prepared a way to redeem men from the death they didn’t deserve and from the sin they never committed. And this way is in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, whom he send to the world to became a man and die for us, so that we may have our life again.

But before Jesus come, a means must be given to introduce men to his sin, death as the wages of sin and his need for a redeemer. Therefore the law was given at Sinai that was a means to reveals the sin in us, our self-love nature, and the wages of it, which is death. In the law also was given the promise of a Redeemer and Savior of the world, introduced through the sacrificial law.

The whole law given at Sinai was the means to lead men to Christ that will redeem them from death and justify them from the sin they never committed (Romans 5:18,19). It was designated for a period of time only, till “the Seed should come to whom the promise was given” (Galatians 3:19). A period of time that span from Moses till John (the year when Christ was crucified) – Luke 16:16.

With his death on the cross, Christ accomplished his mission but unfinished. He only justifies all men, to reconcile them with God and gives their life back. But this act on the cross didn’t change men’s nature; we are still sinful with a love for self. He has no time to stay longer on earth, but when he left this earth he promised men that he would send His Spirit that will finished the mission Christ was unable to do. Through a life led by the Spirit, men’s character would be changed and recreate back again in the nature of God. Love to their fellow men will change their attitude of self-love, and when they have this they are FIT for heaven.

Christ justification is imputed, that is our TICKET to heaven and the sanctification done by the Spirit is Christ imparted righteousness; it is our FITNESS for heaven.

Along with Christ death, the law comes to an end as it was just a means to lead people to Christ. Once in him by faith, you will not continue with the law (Galatians 3:23-25) but you will continue with a life led by the Spirit for sanctification that make you FIT to enter heaven and live there.

In His love

James S.

Quote.
Again I would direct you to Hebrews 10:16, which, taken together with Jeremiah 31:33, clearly shows that the law that God wants to write in our hearts is the law of Ten Commandments. You're trying to make a separation there, where none exists. The Ten Commandments ARE the law of love. "This is love, that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6. "Love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10.
Unquote.

You didn’t know what you are saying. Before the Ten Commandments ever exist, there is only one law in heaven. The law of love that was based on God’s nature. It is not the Ten Cs that would be written in our heart because this law kills and lead to condemnation (you were obliged to keep and obey it, but you have not the ability to perform that – 2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Romans 7:9-11, 14-23). What will be written in our heart is the same law in Adam when he was created, the love of God! A recreating done by the Spirit! With this love in your heart, you can love your fellow man, a character that fits heavenly character.

John, you have still a lot to learn if you want learn more.

In his love

James S.

Since the cross, men was reconciled to God in Christ and those who believe him will have a change of nature that is fit for heaven (through the work of the Spirit) and will live for ever because Christ has redeem him from the first death. But those who lives for the flesh are not in him, will die the second death as the wages from their own sins, there is no more redemption for them.

SIN is our self-love nature, the “original sin” we were born with.
Sin is the deeds that break God’s law, born from our sinful desire.
SIN is the source for the deeds we did which is sin in it self as it breaks the principle of the law. That’s why no man would be justified by the law with his obedience as no one can do “good” things, no one have “good” deeds, no one can fulfil the demands of the law if what is “good” is “love to our fellow man” but all what we have is love for self, which is our nature.

If we could keep the law and fulfils it demands, Christ didn’t need to come for we have the righteousness required by the law and for that we will be rewarded with eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5; Romans 10:5). But unfortunately no one could, for that reason Christ must come and die to redeem man, because this nature men is hopeless, something they deserve as it is not their fault. God didn’t create man in this nature, he created them with love that seeks no self in their heart, in the likeness of his nature. He could not and will not leave men alone and forever in this state, helpless and without hope.

He create a way of salvation, he will send his only begotten Son to die for men, to redeem them from the wages of sin and gives their life back. But first he must create a way so that people might now this coming Redeemer and Savior of men. He made the law wherein in the law, men would find their Redeemer through their need for a redeemer as in the law they come to know their sin and its wages, the sin they were born with. This law was given only to Israel that was chosen among all tribes and for the Jews only, and just for a specified period of time, “until the Seed come to whom the promise was made” (Galatians 3:19), until the cross in John time (Luke 16:16).

Why is the law designated for a period of time only and not forever? Because the law was only a way to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24), a means for God to shows his justice, mercy and love through the Jews as Abraham descendants to whom his promise was made.

Once the sacrifice has done, once the redeeming took place, once the reconciliation was established the law was no longer needed and lost it functions. Since then God wants faith from men to his Son, he wants them to believe and accept his Son and what he has done. The law is no longer needed for those who believe and have faith in Christ (Galatians 3:25). Who needs it anyway, if I believe him and his promise that if I were in him and he in me I will bear much fruit (John 15:1-5), fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law.

In His love

James S.

It is not logic and doesn’t make sense if people say and teach I must keep the law in spite of my faith in Christ and a life led by the Spirit. If I have faith and want to live by the Spirit, I must die first in order Christ might live in me to do “his willing and his doing”.

“I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me;” – Galatians 2:20.

I live but not in the flesh, it is a life led by the Spirit, it is Christ that lives in me and doing his willing and his doing in me. What is death is my sinful flesh, my desire to do evil, the sin in me. As He promised, that he will release me from the power of sin through the Spirit.

And to do that he must nail the law to his cross, abolished it in his flesh in order his believers might live by faith under the leading of the Spirit. Otherwise they will only live in sin, because “the power of sin is the law” (1 Corinthians 15:56).

It is written - “But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18). This verse doesn’t mean that if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under condemnation of the law. What is the base of this theory? Is it because if we are led by the Spirit we will not commit sins? Read the verse before – “This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” – Galatians 5:16,17. These verse said that because our sinful nature is against what the Spirit desires, even we give our self to be led by the Spirit, it is not a one day job to release us from the grip of sin. The lust of the flesh is our nature desires that would be erased by the Spirit when we give our self under his leading. But since the Spirit is not our spirit (you need faith to have it), and since our will is unstable, and also we still have a free will besides Satan is still alive and active, from time to time we still might do the things we do not want to do (evil things – compare it with Romans 7:14-23). But if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law, because if we were, the law will judge us and found us guilty and condemn us with death in spite Christ has saved us and gives our life back.

Under the law means: under the authority of the law and obligation to keep and obey it, under it judgment and condemnation if we were found guilty. It doesn’t only means under condemnation, how can a man be condemned by the law if he is not under it authority and break the law?

So, we are not under the law if we are led by the Spirit means we are not under the condemnation of the law because we are never under its authority and obligation to keep it! A Spirit led believer doesn’t need the law, because the Spirit is in him all right, that will make him has the fruit of the Spirit, which fulfils the demands of the law. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; against such THERE IS NO LAW” – Galatians 5:22,23.

In His love

James S

It is also written - “For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14).

What means being under grace? It is being under God love and mercy, that forgives our sins and doesn’t remember it anymore (“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more” – Hebrew 8:12) in spite we still did the things we do not want to do (evil things). This is in line with what is written in Romans 8:1,2 –“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is “fruits of the Spirit”, love that seeks no self, heaven principle that is based on God’s nature, the only law that ruled in heaven. When you have this love, you will be released from the law (power) of sin and death as it wages. When you have “fruit of the Spirit”, your obedience to the law (which “fake fruits”) is not needed and doesn’t count as it is just “filthy rags.”

Not under the law released us from the dominion of sin, as the power of sin is the law. But this conditions happen only if you live after the Spirit and not under the law, if you live under grace; the grace of God that justifies all men freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The grace of God that brings righteousness without the law, a righteousness that comes through faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24). Including a righteousness that comes through the work of the Spirit in those who are led by the Spirit.

Those who live after the Spirit is released from the law (Christ has abolished it in his flesh for those who believe him – Ephesians 2:15). And if there is no law, there is no transgressions (Romans 4:15) and sin is not imputed (Romans 5:13), there would be no condemnation besides God didn’t remember our sins and iniquities.

With this facts and Scriptural basis explained, what make you thinks that the law still exists and binds you under it obligation? Is it because the church taught you so, is it because some one taught you so? But this teaching is based on sand, based on human toughs and logic and common sense.

If you say that this teaching has passed all test and stands for thousands or hundreds years, why did you say that the Catholic and Protestant churches taught a false gospel. Are they not established for thousand and hundreds years too and has passed test and searches for the truth?

The point is: if I have fruits of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law, why should there a need to keep and obey the law? If there is no fruits of the Spirit, may be this obligation is necessary. But if I have all deeds required by the law, even there is no law would I do evil by living in sin? No! If I did, I am not led by the Spirit but by the flesh.

Do you think that by keeping and obeying the law make you better in performance according to the righteousness required by the law? The Scripture said as I have explained above and in all my postings; the power of sin is the law, if I keep the law I will be under dominion of sin. How could it happen?

Because it is my desire (not the Spirit) to keep the law (it was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago). And since my desire is the desire of the sinful flesh, a will that is under dominion of sin that dwells in me, the nature of self-love, how could I fulfils the demands of the law that is “love that seeks no self?” My nature is against the spirit of the law (The law is spiritual, but I am flesh sold under sin-Romans 714), which make what ever I do is not “good’ enough before the law (just filthy rags) as I fall short of the glory of God, falls short of his agape love.

Only by a life led by the Spirit through faith I may have the spirit of the law in my heart that expressed it self in deeds of love that fulfils the righteous demands of the law. That make the law and it obligation to keep lost it meanings, it will only hinder the work of the Spirit.

In His love

James S.

Do you think and believe that the Spirit will empower you to keep and obey the law? Do you believe that in Christ I can do all things include in obeying the law? You are wrong, there is no basic for this theory.

The Spirit can not and will not empower you to keep and obey a law that was nailed by Christ 2000 years ago. And also how could the Spirit empower a desire to keep and obey the law that comes or based on the desire of the flesh? The desire of the Spirit is against the desire of the flesh, not cooperating or strengthening it. On the contrary, the job and responsibility of the Spirit is to set you free from the desire of the flesh, to release you from the power of sin that dominate you. But how could you be freed if you keep and obey the law, which empower sin to become stronger in dominating you?

Read and study all my post again and see if I didn’t speak the truth according to the gospel of Christ? If you think I’m not, give me Scriptural basic, verses to back up your idea. Bible only!

There are to many evidence and Scriptural basic in Pauline epistle that conforms to my idea. But less and weak basic to hold the idea of the law still exist and binding upon all believers in Christ.

Since Christ has died to save all men and gives their life back, there must be no law stands that will again condemns men and put them back to death. Otherwise Christ death is worthless and means nothing. We die again the second death not because there is a law that condemns us in breaking the letter, but because we choose to live for self. We choose to live for the flesh, we choose to live in sin in the means a love for our self, we didn’t love our fellow men (but how could we, if it is fruit of the Spirit from a life led by the Spirit?).

We must live as Christ lived not in his obedience to the law but in his love for his fellow men. He has shown and proved his ultimate love for men with his death and humiliation that is unbearable, only for you and me so that we might live. This is what he wants from us: “Keep my commandments” and this is my commandments “Love one another” (John 13:34; 14:15,21; 15:10, 12,17).

He never said “keep the Ten Commandments”, because he knew this law only brings condemnation and death.

Paul said regarding the Ten Commandments: “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought DEATH, which was ENGRAVED in LETTERS ON STONE……………………..If the ministry that CONDEMNS men………”

There is no more law for Christ’s believers, in fact since the law was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago, there is no more law for all men. Justification is a free gift because the law could not justify us, sanctification is the work of the Spirit (Romans 15:16; 1 Peter 1:2) because we could never sanctify our self through the law. So, the law must go and finished, it has accomplished it missions, leading the Jews to Christ and leading me also. Once in Christ the law is behind me, looking forward with faith, holding on to His Spirit in my heart, he will lead me through the unseen road of righteousness till the gate of heaven and enter it to live there and eat the fruit of life. “We live by faith, not by sight” – 2 Corinthians 5:7.

In His love

James S

Mike.

You are right about Avalee, Charlene and some others.

You and me differ only in the fact that the law is still binding for you and that you are obliged to keep and obey it, although you admit that your obedience are purely fruit of the Spirit.

For me, the law no longer exist and I have no obligation whatsoever against it. My obligation is to live for God and not for the flesh. My obligation is to live by faith and led buy the Spirit. The Spirit then will work in me to do “the willing and the doing of God”. The result is deeds of love to one another that came from God’s love that was imparted in my heart. Since the deeds fulfils the righteous demands of the law, why should I again keep and obey a law that its principle was already implanted in my heart and is the source of my doings?

Paul said; “1If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God” – Galatians 2:18,19.

Which means, if I take the law again (which I have destroyed the idea that the law makes me righteous) and made it an obligation to keep and obey, I will make myself again a transgressor, because the law will only expose my sinful nature again and with that condemns me. And since it is the job of the Spirit to recreate me in the likeness of God by imparting his love in my heart that wants to live for God, it is a sin to take the law and made it again a rule for righteousness.

The law killed me and I am dead to the law, so that I might live for God. How? Through a life led by the Spirit with faith in Christ. Keeping and obeying the law make me live for self, as it is “my desire” to keep and obey it.

I was crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ that lives in me. It is his desire to recreate me back in God’s nature through the work of his Spirit. If I awaken my desire to keep and obey a law that killed me in spite of the life Christ has given me back, I will lay him aside and lives for self.

In His love

James S