James i see the answer to my question in another thread. Thank you for making it clear.

I would ask you to please, re-read the posts on this thread...there is so much evidence presented here for you to examine. Ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you in to all truth and take the time to listen and examine/study what all of us have posted to you. Pray for understanding God's truth. If you are sincerely searching, lay aside your counter gospel for a time of seeking so you may find. I will be praying for you. Approach each scripture with an open mind so it may be led by the Spirit.

James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:

If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.

Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.

But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.

Showing that the Law is a transcript of God's character:

God is good -- Luke 18:19
the Law is good -- 1 Timothy 1:8, Romans 7:12,16

God is holy -- Isaiah 5:16
the Law is holy -- Romans 7:12

God is perfect -- Matthew 5:18
the Law is perfect -- Psalm 19:7

God is pure -- 1 John 3:3
the Law is pure -- Psalm 19:8

God is just -- Deuteronomy 32:4
the Law is just -- Romans 7:12

God is true -- John 3:33
the Law is true -- Psalm 19:9, 119:142,151

God is spiritual -- 1 Corinthians 10:4
the Law is spiritual -- Romans 7:14

God is righteousness -- Jeremiah 23:6
the Law is righteousness -- Psalm 119:172

God is faithful -- 1 Corinthians 1:9
the Law is faithful -- Psalm 119:86

God is great -- Job 36:26, Psalm 48:1
the Law is great -- Hosea 8:12

Since the Ten Commandments are a transcript of God's character, they can no more be changed or done away with than God Himself can be changed or done away with.

"For I am the Lord, I change not." Malachi 3:6.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18,19.

***

For what it's worth....any who say that the obligations of God's Law can be changed, are doing exactly the same thing as the "little horn" antichrist power of Daniel 7:25 -- "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." That's not very good company to be keeping!

[ June 04, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: John ]

Quote.

James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:

If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.

Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.

But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.

Unquote.

John.

You forget one important thing.

Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin. If Adam never sinned, mankind will live happily in Eden till now and forever and didn’t need the Ten Commandments. But Adam has sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Remember that even there is no law (before the law was given to Moses), death already reigned in the world (Romans 5:13), because we are his descendants and through Adam, all of us must also die.

For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem us if he is a just, fair and loving God as he claimed he is.

Study this verse and think hard “- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”%0

Quote.

James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:

If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.

Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.

But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.

Unquote.

John.

You forget one important thing.

Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin. If Adam never sinned, mankind will live happily in Eden till now and forever and didn’t need the Ten Commandments. But Adam has sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Remember that even there is no law (before the law was given to Moses), death already reigned in the world (Romans 5:13), because we are his descendants and through Adam, all of us must also die.

For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem us if he is a just, fair and loving God as he claimed he is.

Study this verse and think hard “- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

Let’s say, the law was never given to mankind, but death reigns and all mankind will experience eternal death. Even though there is no law that could judge us and condemn us, but death as the wages of sin that we never commits is our part because we are Adam’s descendants. Our sins are not imputed because there is no law to judge and condemn us, but nevertheless we still must die.

Christ death on the cross at Calvary was a demonstration of the love of God that seeks no self. He justified all men from the sin they never commit. It gets even; in Adam all men is a sinner and must die, in Christ all men were made righteous and get their life back.

Romans 5:12,18,19 (NIV).
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

Thus, either there is a law or there is no law, Christ MUST come and die to redeem mankind to show his love, mercy and grace and his justice.

But once the damage has been repaired, where all men got their life back through the redemption work of Christ Jesus, the law that was given with a special purpose for a specific time span as I have explained above comes to an end.

Since then, the standard of life for a FITNESS for heaven is no longer the written law engraved on stone tablets, but the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”, which is the character of heavenly beings that was created in God’s nature. There is no place for “self-loving” people, no matter a law keeper or not, no matter there is a law or not. Because a change of character doesn’t come from obedience to the law but come from the Spirit that works in a believer heart who lives by the Spirit to impart the love of God in their hearts. Just then they might “love one another” and are FIT for heaven. The law lost it meanings and functions because it could gives nothing good and perfect, just condemnation and death.

If you could not grasp this truth, you will never understand the true Gospel of Christ.

In His love

James S.

Charlene.

Thanks for your advice, but me too have given a good reason and you may compare it with the bible. Did I speak the truth or not?

Don't close your eyes because it is against the teaching of some one that you believe is God's prophet, because the SOP is the lesser light, and final decision for truth must be the greater light, the bible only!

In His love

James S.

I see that the Bible message and the messages of Ellen white are in harmony. I believe she is the Prophet of the last day Church, the "Remnant". If there is a last day Church of God that does not have a prophet...it is not the "remnant" church. Study the two together for one amplifies the other. The Bible in our map to follow on the road to Heaven and the Spirit of Prophecy is our personal guide of every step along the way. One works with the other, so there is no confusion and not getting lost.

If your "Gospel is in contrast to the Spirit of Prophecy, it is also in contrast to the Holy Bible, so examing where they depart from one another and study till harmony is found. A Doctrine is not built on one test alone but of the gathered evidence of the whole body of topical scripture and quotes. Plus the bible dictionary. I am sure you have put much study into you Gospel and i feel you have come here to teach more than to learn. I will not be studying what you have presented for i know it is false doctrine.......You have said it is against what Ellen White says so i know it is against the Bible also. I have studied these subjects with Bible and SOP and have found a different Gospel, I recomend, as a Seventh Day Adventist, you do the same....all these truths are found in the Bible but the same truth becomes expanded, and made clear by the SOP. God Bless your study.

Edward, Avalee and Charlene, the idea that we must first reach within ourselves to obey the requirements of God and then we are in a position to utilize the power of God, just doesn't make sense to me. If that's not what you guys are saying, then please forgive me.

Of all the quotes that have been used to prove that we must first do our part to obey God and then He'll do His part to help us obey, give the impression that we are using God instead of God using us.

But Philippians 2:12 and 13 make it very clear what the relationship is between our part and God's part in the business of obedience. And we must balance all other passages with this equation.

Philippians 2:12, 13
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

It’s God who empowers us to obey, not us empowering ourselves by tapping into God’s power source. We lack the hardware or software to obey. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments” must be understood in light of Phil 2:13. That is, the love of God empowers us to obey the law.

To suggest that the “love” Jesus is referring to in John 14:15 is human love is a huge mistake. Human love cannot generate genuine obedience. Only the imparted agape love of Jesus can empower us to obey the law.

The “love” in John 14:15 is the gift of God we receive by accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour. It is a gift. We cannot produce it ourselves. And we cannot reproduce it after we receive it. We must continually stay connected to Jesus so that His love can continually flow through us afresh. It is this love that empowers us to obey the law.

It is also the love of God that enables us to cooperate with Him in order to obey the law. We do not possess the necessary skills or abilities to cooperate with God. We must first receive the gift of Jesus’ love before we can cooperate with God to obey the law.

John thank you so much for your post. If you do not mind I am going to save your last post for future use. Excellent study you gave.

In The Blessed Hope

Avalee

[ June 05, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]

I must read things different than you Mike....I don't see that anywhere in my posts. I fact i see where i have stressed...."With Christ, i can do all things," and " with out me you can do nothing"....all we can produce is filthy rags...only in Christ can we do His will, this is what is see I have written...

You seem to add your interpretation to my words.

Mike I must agree with Charlene..once again you have misunderstood or tried to say what we mean. For the life of me I do not see how you come up with some of these interpretations.