Thank you James for saying that ..I am very happy to not be in harmony with your thinking However...I am am so blessed to be in harmony with God....The Bible....and the Seventh-day Adventist Church...and Charlene...and Ed..and whoever else believes in Gospel Truths. James I will...along with the others here be praying for you. Have you been able to talk to someone in the local Seventh-day Adventist Church there for help in some of these things?

In The Blessed Hope

Avalee

[ June 08, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]

James,

I have not studied your presentation so I come to you without knowing exactly what you have said but i have read enough to know you come to this Seventh-Day-Adventist forum "preaching a False gospel"

You said you are a SDA, but what you present is not the teachings of the Bible and your church and your prophet. You also said you come with a humble spirit wanting to learn, but i see a spirit of rebelion and wanting to despute the established truth of God in the Remnant Church.
Some have taken you at your word and patiently presented to you the Gospel as it is in Jesus Christ....You have rejected that also.....Do you realise that when you reject God's truth you reject God, and Rejecting God leads to destruction.

I would venture to say everyone on this forum loves you and wishes to show you where you err, but i feel you do not want to be taught/learn but only want to teach your error. I for one will not read or respond anymore to your posts....i do not want to be part of any false Gospel, or aid in any way your message. I pray no one will be led astray from reading your words....but plea with you to study your own churches truth and appreciate the clear words of your prophet, and most of all, Allow the holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, The Seventh Day Adventist Church has the truth for these last days, Thank God for it and believe it so you may cross over into the promised land.

You are in my prayers.

James: Do you actually claim to be an Adventist?
I may have missed that declaration somewhere. If not, then please say so, because what I've seen here is pure Dallas Theological Seminary.
Perhaps your time would be better spent "raiding" some church that doesn't claim salvation through the spilt blood of Jesus.
If you have a personal axe against Adventists, the place to resolve that is on your knees, not at your computer. God knows who we are and who you are. Ask Him...and wait for an answer from Him, not Bill Bright, Dr. Ice, Hal Lindsey or anyone else.
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

(KJV) 1st John Chapter 3: Bible cross-references. (Specific to the idea that in AD 31 the Ten Commandments were done away or no longer apply.)

1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

(What process creates Children of God, out of people who were sinners by choice ?) They come to God when He calls and give themselves to Him & all their choices day by day & follow His teachings.) Matthew ch’s 5-7; 2nd Peter 1:1- 21; Ephesians ch’s 1-2; (Matthew 16:24-26 & Mark 8:34 - 38 & Luke 9:23-26 & Luke 14: 26 - 27, 33 & Luke 6:12 - 49

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This law that is spoken of is still in effect after Jesus death on Calvary, and His resurrection out of Joseph’s new tomb. For where no law is, there is no knowledge of what to do or not do. The sins are sins of ignorance and not rebellion. The law of ordinances had been removed at 3PM when Jesus died on Calvary, when the Holy Place - Most Holy Place veil was split open by God’s finger. This law is the only law left of the two laws spoken of by Scripture . The Ten Commandments. (See Matt 24:35; Mark 13: 31; Luke 21:33; { The Moon is not gone yet. Psalms 72:1-7 Fearing God requires the Ten Commandments to still be operating - without them there is no definition of fearing God. Without the Ten Commandments the promise of peace has evaporated having lost the condition of it’s fulfilment. See Psalms 119:165 .}

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Did sin cease to be imputed after AD 31 ? See Romans 5:12-14 . If the Ten Commandments are gone so is the imputing of sin. However these texts show a time line of people still being accounted sinners either being redeemed from their sins or warned to flee from their sins after the date of AD 31 (when many suppose the Ten Commandments were done away with.) Jude 1:15; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 18:4; Revelation 18:5 ; Revelation 21:8

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 ¶ We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Murders still exist after AD 31. Why would the sin of murder exist after the Commandments forbidding murder be extinct ?

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Agape has no existence or fulfilment without the Ten Commandment law, for love is the fulfilling of the Ten Commandment Laws. Notice Romans 13:8 & 10 ; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8 .

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1st John ch 3 was written after AD 31, yet John just keeps writing about the Everlasting Gospel & Jesus & The Ten Commandment Law as inseparable . Jesus is the source of the Ten Commandment Law, the I AM that wrote it with His own finger & lived it with His own human flesh & says in Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” Without the Ten Commandments one of the conditions Scripture states of abiding in Jesus is gone. Since Jesus wrote the words to the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses (both times) - The Ten Commandments are His (Jesus’s) words.

Heaven & Earth are still here.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

James have you been participating in rites & ceremonies that are not Scriptural? Are you or have you attended occult worship services recently ? You do not sound like you used to sound. Your grasp of the Bible has deteriorated. What has changed in your life to cause this?

James, as you can see, several people are having a hard time appreciating your way of looking at the law, and the doctrine of faith and works. As for me, I see where you're coming from, but how you get there is easily and understandably misunderstood. It's similar to how Ellen White felt about they way Jones stated things at times. It's very important not to say things in a manner that mislead people.

When you say the law has been abolished because it has been written in our hearts and minds, and that we are, therefore, no longer obligated to obey it, you give the impression that the law is useless. I believe it would be better if you just said something like - Once we die to sin in Christ the law is written in our hearts and minds and then our life will be in harmony with the law.

To say that since the law is now in us it has been abolished is way too confusing. That's like saying to a transplant recepient, Now that you have a new heart it no longer exists. When we receive Jesus into our hearts, does that mean He is abolished? No way! James, please explore new ways to express this very simple concept (law and works). Thank you.

Mike.

I understand the feelings of those who reply to me, because what I presented is against what they believe and were accustomed to. But nevertheless I will continue with my “new insight” as Pastor Ikan has phrased it, and appreciate a good counter with Scriptural basic.

You got the point when you said “Once we die to sin in Christ the law is written in our hearts and minds and then our life will be in harmony with the law,” only what is written is not the Ten Commandments but its principle “love that seeks no self”. We experience a new character that is fit for heaven and fulfils the demands of the law.

And if your life is in harmony with the law, do you need the law to keep and obey? If due to your faith you are in Christ and Christ in you to do “his willing and his doing” that fulfils the demands of the principle of heaven, do you still need the law to keep and obey?

Telling people to have faith in Christ meanwhile they must keep and obey the law is just the same as telling people to drive a car and at the same time they must walk on the road. How is it possible? When you have love that seeks no self in your heart as fruit of the Spirit, you are able to love your fellow men, because the love for self was gone. And since love is the fulfillment of the law, it doesn’t make sense if we must keep and obey the law as a standard for righteous life and judgment. Either you take the law, keep and obey it or you live by faith according to the Spirit.

I will continue with my ideas and wait a good counterfeit from your part.

In His love

James S.

Edward.

I appreciate your good post and study, a few comments on that.

Quote.
This law that is spoken of is still in effect after Jesus death on Calvary, and His resurrection out of Joseph’s new tomb. For where no law is, there is no knowledge of what to do or not do.
Unquote.

Some of the Gentiles who has not the law knew what to do and what is not, they have the spirit of the law in their heart even they never hear about God and have not the law, but they were led by the Spirit (Romans 2:14-16). So will be Christ believers who were led by the Spirit, because the Spirit will make them to love one another, and love does no harm to our fellow men.

Quote.
Did sin cease to be imputed after AD 31? See Romans 5:12-14. If the Ten Commandments are gone so is the imputing of sin. However these texts show a time line of people still being accounted sinners either being redeemed from their sins or warned to flee from their sins after the date of AD 31 (when many suppose the Ten Commandments were done away with) Jude 1:15; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 18:4; Revelation 18:5; Revelation 21:8
Unquote.

Indeed sins cease to be imputed because the law was no longer in effect as I have presented. What mater now is a change of character to be fit for heaven, what matter now is to be justified by faith, and in a faith relationship with God the law lost it functions. The ministry of the law ended in Christ and replaced with the ministry of the Spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-11). If there is no law, there is no transgression and sin will not be imputed.

God has promised mankind that after “that time” (the cross of Christ), he will wrote the (principle of) the law in men’s heart through the Spirit that was sealed to those who has faith in Christ and that he will remember their sins and iniquity no more (sins is no longer imputed) - Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26,27; Hebrews 10:15-17.

What is given in Revelation must be applied to those who were under the law for their judgment.

Quote.
James have you been participating in rites & ceremonies that are not Scriptural? Are you or have you attended occult worship services recently ? You do not sound like you used to sound. Your grasp of the Bible has deteriorated. What has changed in your life to cause this?
Unquote.

Compare my ideas with the Scripture, do I sound like what you think?

In His love

James S.

“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons” – Galatians 4:4,5.

Who were “they” and who were “we”?

“Them” here refers to the Jews and “we” here refers to the Gentiles believers.

Thus, the Jews were under the law and the Gentiles not, is that right?

The law was given to Israel through Moses, are there any other people than the Jews who were under the law? And what does under the law means?

“Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law” – Romans 3:19.

“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law…………” – Romans 2:12,13.

Under the law here means under the authority of the law, the Jews has an obligation to keep and obey the law (not only to hear but also to do), the law became their standard for living and judgment. No Gentiles were under the law because it was not given to them and was not means for them.

Christ was born from a woman who was under the law to redeem the Jews who were under the law, that the Gentiles might receive the adoption of son through faith in Jesus Christ.

From what did Christ redeemed the Jews?

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree; That the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” – Galatians 3:13,14.

Christ came to redeem the Jews from the curse of the law due to their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfils it spiritual demand.

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under curse; for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” – Galatians 3:10.

Is there any man who did the law perfectly and continually? Yes, there is! We know that Paul claimed himself to be perfect in righteousness required by the law (Philippians 3:16), so did the rich young man (Matthew 19:16-22). Are they not under the curse of the law? Paul said: “for as many as are of the works of the law are under curse”, that means including them. If they were not under curse, they didn’t need Christ redemption, but Paul said; “Christ came to redeem them that were under the law”, and that must include both of them, because they were under the law too.

But if claiming them self perfect in righteousness required by the law didn’t release them from the curse of the law and they still need Christ redemption, what was their perfection means? They were perfect in keeping the letter of the law, a legalistic righteousness, but failed to fulfil the intent of the law; love that seeks no self. Why did they fail? Because their deeds were based on their love for self, a character that is against the intent of the law. They lack the spirit of the law in their heart, they kept the law perfectly but without love for one another, as it is impossible for them who can only love themselves.

And this happens to all men who are under the law, who take the law as a standard for living and judgment. They all were under the curse of the law! “All the world may become guilty before God, therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” – Romans 3:19,20.

But what is the difference between the Jews and Christ’s believers after the cross that was and is still under the law with the Jews before the cross who were under the law?

The Jews before the cross were redeemed from the curse of the law with Christ death 2000 years ago, but how could it happen with those who were and are under the law since the cross? Christ would not come the second time to die again to redeem them from the curse of the law. He will come again only to pick up his people and take them to heaven.

But life and glory are for those who were and are not under the law, a law that kills and only lead to condemnation by observing it. Because at Christ redemption, the Gentiles that have not the law were all justified from the sin they didn’t commit (sin of self-love in their sinful nature that was passed to them through birth) and got their life too as was the Jews who were under the law. The blessing of Abraham came to them and through faith they received the adoptions of son and the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith.

What happen to those who take the law as an obligation and standard of life and judgment after the cross? They got the curse of the law and Christ can’t redeem them again!

In His love

James S

Do you understand my post above?

Christ came 2000 years ago to redeem those who WERE under the law (only the Jews who has the law). He redeemed them from the curse of the law due to their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfils it spiritual demand “love that seeks no self.”

The Gentiles in the whole world who were not under the law were redeemed too from sin and the wages of sin, the death that came along with sin when sin enter the world through Adam. They were not redeemed from their sins but from their sin. They were not redeemed from the sins they committed, because if there is no law there is no transgression and their sins is not imputed. And the Gentiles have not the law, only the Jews have the law, so, only the Jews who were redeemed from the curse of the law.

The Scripture said: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law” – Romans 2:12.

The Jews were under the law, they committed sins in the law and will be judge and condemned by the law. But Christ has redeemed them from the curse of the law. Does this means all the Jews with no exception including them that crucified Him will enter heaven? No, only those who have faith in the coming Christ pictured in the Law of sin offerings, because justification by faith was also reckoned unto them. They that sinned while being under the law but understood the means of the law given to them and looking forward with faith for the coming Redeemer, they that will be justified. But those who seek righteousness by the law and thought that they can earn it through their obedience will not be justified although they were redeemed from the curse of the law.

There is a way that seems straight, but the end lead to death.
It is the way of the law that only leads to condemnation and death since it was given at Sinai.

But Christ is the way, the truth and the life.

In Him there is life and being in him by faith we have our justification that brought life and Christ in us brings sanctification for fitness to heaven. Justification is our ticket to heaven it is Christ imputed righteousness, a free gift from God based on Christ dead on the cross for the redemption of sin and it wages. Sanctification is our fitness for heaven it is Christ imparted righteousness, based on the work of the Spirit who did “the willing and the doing of God” in Christ believers who lived by faith and after the Spirit. Having both we have our justification by faith.

All men from Adam till the last born in the end of time were born in sin. A sin they never committed as this sin belongs to Adam, but with this sin death came upon all men. Christ came to redeem men from this sin and it wages with his death on the cross to declare that God is just, righteous, abundant in love and mercy.

Christ on the cross has made the score even; “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous” – Romans 5:18,19.

“For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” – 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.

Christ death on the cross has redeemed men from the sin they never committed and the wages of sin, the dead that they don’t deserve. Christ death has redeemed men from the first death as this death is not their choice and they don’t deserve it. Death now becomes a sleep, before of men it is a real death but for God it is just a sleep. As the result of Christ redemption all men has their life back and their new life is hidden in Christ that dwells in heavenly realm (Ephesians 2:5,6). Their body might die, buried and forgotten, but their new life is in Christ till the time to return it to them.

Those who are justified by their faith will be resurrected from their sleep and put on their new life, but those who are not justified will wait a little longer. And when the time come to awake them from their sleep, they got their second life, but because during their first life they were not in Christ and didn’t have faith in him and live for self, they deserve the second death as the wages of their own sin in spite Christ had redeemed them from Adam’s sin and it wages. They die again eternally because there is no place in heaven and the New World for sinners. There is no place in heaven and the New World for those who lived in sin, who lived for self, who lived for the flesh.

Death as the wages of sin is always the penalty for those who love them self, because this is the real “sin” as it is against the love of God that seeks no self. The love for self is the sin that transgressed the principle of heaven; that is against the nature of God; his agape love, a kind of love that has no self in it.

They deserve this eternal death because of their unbelief, they didn’t believe in the name of Jesus Christ. There are many also that although claim themselves to be Christ believers, but because they didn’t believe his Gospel; they didn’t believe that a life led by the Spirit through faith is all what Christ asked from them; and has taken the law again that lead to condemnation and death as a standard of judgment and righteousness instead of being in Him as their way of life; by this they have shown their unbelief and continue living in sin because whatever is not of faith is sin.

Where do you belong? Are you looking for the way of life or the way of death? Do you live by faith or by the law? Beware, the time is near, judgment is always based on deeds, and only those who has the deeds of the Spirit or fruit of the Spirit that will passed God’s judgment.

In His love

James S.

James:Well, I will make one more attempt. Since you have a Dutch surname, I'll try Dutch first.

Vriend James,
Ik ben bang dat jouw Engels voor mij te verwarrend is om je te beantwoorden of opmerkingen te geven. Je spreekt jezelf constant tegen. Anderen op dit forum begrijpen er ook weinig meer van. Misschien is het beter als je jouw ideeën vertelt aan een groep mensen die jouw taal wel kunnen spreken.

Now English:

Friend John: I am afraid your English is much too confusing for me to answer this or future remarks. You contradict yourself constantly. It certainly has left others on this forum quite confused too. Perhaps you should consider giving your ideas to a group in your native language.