Broer Ikan.

Uw spreekt Hollands ook? That is leuk, maar Engels is beeter voor mij.

Brother Ikan.

You speak Dutch? That is great, but I prefer English.

I think I didn’t present any contradiction, but if you found it could you please tell me? I am afraid that in the concept of obedience to the law for those who believe we will find many contradictions.

And I think it will be better if you could give me a counter with Scriptural basis rather then just commenting your opinion, so I will learn something too.

In His love

James S.

Many say that they keep the law not for seeking righteousness, because they knew that righteous-ness comes by faith.

But this idea contradicts the Scripture! The law was given to justify men who could keep the law continually and perfectly for a reward of eternal life. So, if you say you keep and obey the law not for righteousness, then you contradict the purpose of the law? If you believe righteousness is not from the law then why do you keep it?

Or maybe because you think God has commanded you to keep the law? If so is the case, then I would say God is out of his mind! Why should he command us to keep a law that could not justify us due to our failure in keeping and obeying it continually and perfectly that fulfils the righteous demands of the law? Why should he command us to keep and obey a law that could never justify us, on the contrary what the law could do is only condemn us with death sentence despite the fact that Christ had justified all men and made them alive? And what is more important why should he command us to keep a law that could never justify us while there is a justification that we could earn through faith in Christ?

Once the law was in effect for the Jews before Christ, because it was God purpose to introduce Christ to men through the law that was a must to keep and obey. But that was before Christ death on the cross that justifies all men and gives their life back. “The law was put in charge to lead people to Christ that they might be justified by faith. Since faith has come, men are no longer under the supervision of the law” – Galatians 3:24,25.

Is that not very clear and easy to understand? When we have faith in Christ, we didn’t need the law any longer to supervise our life.

Which law was the law that supervise man? Was it the sacrificial Law? No, it was the law that introduce Christ! Was it the law of the Ten Commandments? Yes, it was. Because this “do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery etc.” supervise men to live righteously.

So, if you believe that the law of Sacrificial was ended at Christ’s cross and the Ten Commandments goes on forever, are you not under supervision of the law? If so is the case, are you not contradicting the Scripture that said the law was no longer our supervisor as now we have faith in Christ.

Why the Ten Commandments was ended also at the cross? Because even it seems supervising men to live righteously but in fact the law could only condemns men with death sentence for their failure to get a justification by the law through their obedience. But God has made known his righteousness without the law, a righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21,22) to replace the former way that supervised men to live righteously but failed to justify men for their righteousness.

Only through faith in Christ men will have his justification, and only through the Spirit men will have a Supervisor that will lead his life to all righteousness and holy life. There is no more place for the law in a faith relationship with Christ, it has no functions, just a shadow that fades away when it met Christ, the Body.

“The law is not of faith” – that also means, when you keep the law, you have no faith and when you have faith you didn’t need the law.

“And whatever is not of faith, is sin”, that means; if you keep the law you are under the supervision of the law but meanwhile you sinned because of your unbelief that Christ through His Spirit will supervise your life to all righteousness and holy life.

Take my advice, start having faith in him and live by the Spirit.

The Ten Commandments was over 2000 years ago at the cross of Golgotha.

In His love

James S.

Salah berfatwa? Tidak pernah!

[ June 22, 2002, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]

It is great that there are those who know more than one language but in the forums we must use English so others can understand...if private then please send an email to those who speak this language. Thanks

The teaching that the Law still exists, binding upon all Christians and required their obedience has no Scriptural basic. When Paul said that the law was nailed to the cross, ended in Christ, only until John, no longer a Christian’s guide and tutor for a righteous living, he never means as only the Sacrificial law that was over. He spoke about the law, the Torah given at Sinai to Moses that includes the Ten Commandments. Only men who think differently and teach something that Paul and the other apostles never taught.

Why is the law no longer needed in a faith relationship with God?

Because the purpose of the law was only leading its law keepers to Christ. Is only the Sacrificial Law that leads to Christ? No! This law only introduce Christ the real sin redeemer pictured in the law by those animals for sin offerings. Is the Ten Commandments the law that leads to Christ? No! This law expose our sin, condemned us with death.

But if we combine both laws, we will have the law that leads to Christ. By the Ten Commandments law keepers were condemned to death as the wages of their sins and through the Sacrificial law, law keepers were introduced to their real sin redeemer and savior.

Thus, if the law that leads to Christ; “the schoolmaster” was over because now we have faith in Christ according to Galatians 3:23-25, then it was over, the sacrificial law, then ten Commandments, the tithe, the Sabbath, the law of clean and unclean meats, all what is written in the Torah was over.

There is no more law that stands to judge people and condemn them for their failure in keeping it, there is no more law that stands as a standard for living righteously and requires its law keeper to keep and obey it. The law was only for the Jews till John time (Christ death on the cross) and not for men after the cross.

Teaching the sacrificial law was over but the Ten Commandments and the law of clean and unclean meats still exist and bindings is circumcising the Gospel of Christ and leading people away from Christ.

If men must now live by faith and according to the Spirit to be justified by their faith, men didn’t need any law not because if there is no law he is free to live for the flesh (to live in sin) without judgment and will go to heaven, but because his deeds already conforms the principle of the law, already in harmony with the law, already covers the law demands in righteousness. This deeds does not come from his effort as it is impossible for a self-loving men to do the deeds of love to his fellow men, but comes from the Spirit that does “the willing and the doing of God” in him. This “love for our fellow men” is “fruits” of the Spirit, not the deeds of the flesh.

That was the whole point of the Gospel of Christ as preached in Pauline epistle.

And why the law must come to an end and no longer has the authority upon men for obedience and judgment? Because, if it does not come to an end, the law will only expose our sin, judging us and condemn us with death despite the fact that Christ has saved us and gives our life back with his death on the cross. This is a very important matter that is very hard to understand, but it is real and true.

If Christ can made us that have faith in him to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us through the work of the Spirit, then why should he ask us to keep and obey his law considering the fact that no one could keep and obey the law continually and perfectly, where one transgression (as what Adam did) is enough to put him under death penalty. It doesn’t make sense if he asked and commanded us to keep and obey the law? Meanwhile keeping the law will not save us and justify us because justification is based on faith in him, so why would Christ command us to keep it? Is he out of his mind?

The law was given to justify men (the Jews) for reward of eternal life, but the fact no one is justified by the law means all law keepers were found guilty and put under condemnation. But God gave us a way out of this problem; by his grace he justify all men through Christ redemption, a justification that gives life for all men, which is our ticket to heaven. But life goes on, so, men must seek the righteousness of God that comes from faith in Christ, a justification by faith that is our fitness for heaven. If God could not justify us by faith that means we have no faith in Christ and we must die the second death as the wages of our sin (whatever is not of faith is sin). We could not enter heaven and live there because we are not FIT for heaven as our character does not conforms to the principle of heaven. Why not? Because our character didn’t change and we still are a self-loving people, a character that is against the love of God. We may only have God’s love if we live by faith according to the Spirit since this love is fruit of the Spirit.

The Scripture said that God grace justify all men in Christ and gives them a second life as their ticket to heaven in order men might seek His righteousness that comes through faith in Christ to be fit for heaven. And the Law (Torah) was the instrument to lead people to Christ, once in Christ by faith we didn’t need the law any longer, not only because it has served it purposed but also it has lost it meanings and functions. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe, a righteousness that comes by faith in Christ to replace the old way of the letter, righteousness required by the law in return for life.

It will never end when we talk about the law as Paul could not stopped to explain the Gentiles believers that the law has no more authority over Christ believers. You will find this in all of his epistles.

In His love

James S.

James, I must go on record that I strongly disagree with you insisting that the law ended at the cross. Jesus writes the law in our hearts and minds when we're born again. To say it ended is telling a lie.

"Praise God form whom all blessings flow."
God Bless you Mike

English from Bahasa Indonesia translation to James request to debate him :
"Over bad religious teachings? No, never."

I agree.

Once truth has been studied, proclaimed, and rejected, there is no further sense in debate unless the person is still open and searching for the truth which this particular forum is all about.

"Are the Scriptures vague and inconsistent? Is there any foundation for the conflicting opinions and various sentiments and doctrines that find credence in the religious world? If so, then we may entertain doubts of their divine origin, for it is not the inspiration of God that leads people to come to diverse opinions. Those who undertake to interpret the Bible, have corrupted the Word of God and wrested the Scripture from its true meaning, by seeking to harmonize the truth of God with the inventions and doctrines of men. The Scriptures are perverted and misapplied, and the gems of truth are set in the framework of error. These teachers are blinded, and cannot clearly discern what is the true meaning of the Scriptures". . . . {TDG 164.2}