The following passage teaches that God will judge people according to the light they lived up to:

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Also, when Joshua entered the Promised Land he was instructed to wipe out everyone. The Canaanites had closed their probation as a race of people so that no one born into that race could hope for salvation. It will be that way for people living at the end of time too.

We are neither saved or lost based on inheritance. Salvation and damnation is the result of our own choosing. We are not automatically saved or lost based solely on what Adam or Jesus did.

We inherit Adam's sinful flesh nature, but we do not inherit his guilt and condemnation. We are guitly and condemned based on the sins we ourselves commit. Neither are we guilty simply because we possess a nature that clamors for sin. This clamoring is not a sin for which we are held accountable. This clamoring is only a temptation. When we are born again and partake of the divine nature we are empowered to resist the clamorings of our sinful flesh nature.

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus does not automatically save everybody. We must accept Jesus as our personal Saviour in order to benefit from His work of salvation. In the case of people who never learn about Jesus and His salvation, God will determine their eternal destiny based on the life they would have lived if they had heard the gospel.

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts on the relationship between faith and works, law and grace. Please make it just as clear each time you address the subject and fewer people will misundersatnd you.

Mike.

It is really good to have this conversation with you as you give reasonable answers for to think about.

Quote.
We are neither saved or lost based on inheritance. Salvation and damnation is the result of our own choosing. We are not automatically saved or lost based solely on what Adam or Jesus did.
Unquote.

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus does not automatically save everybody.

Please give me a verse from the Scripture to support your idea as Romans 2:12-16 is not saying about this.

I think your idea is not right according to the gospel of Christ and here are the verses that are against it.

Titus 2:11 – “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”

Romans 5:23,24 – “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Salvation (a second life after death) was the result of Christ redemption, if no one sins all will go to heaven. But this salvation is Christ objective salvation that justify all men by the grace of God, our ticket to heaven but not our fitness for heaven.

Damnation to death we inherit from Adam according to the verses below.

Romans 5:12-19

12Therefore, JUST AS SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ONE MAN, AND DEATH THROUGH SIN, AND IN THIS WAY DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: THE JUDGMENT FOLLOWED ONE SIN AND BROUGHT CONDEMNATION, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17FOR IF, BY THE TRESPASS OF THE ONE MAN, DEATH REIGNED THROUGH THAT ONE MAN, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, JUST AS THE RESULT OF ONE TRESPASS WAS CONDEMNATION FOR ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:21,22 – “21FOR SINCE DEATH CAME THROUGH A MAN, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Quote.
We inherit Adam's sinful flesh nature, but we do not inherit his guilt and condemnation. We are guitly and condemned based on the sins we ourselves commit. Neither are we guilty simply because we possess a nature that clamors for sin.
Unquote.

Please give me a verse from the Scripture for this idea.

I think it is not right according to the gospel of Christ and here are the verses that support my idea including those above.

Romans 3:23 – “23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.
All men were born with the character of “self-love” they inherit through Adam’s multiplication, and this character is a sin in the real sense as it transgressed the nature of God “love that seeks no self in it.”
Romans 6:23 –“The wages of sin is death.”
Romans 5:18 – “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.”

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In the case of people who never learn about Jesus and His salvation, God will determine their eternal destiny based on the life they would have lived if they had heard the gospel.
Unquote.

I think there is no verses in the Scripture to back up this idea, judgment to those who never hear the law and the Gospel is based on their character, did they have love for their fellow men or not.

All right Mike, I like your thoughts but please support it with correct bible verses.
As my idea was based on those verses I give above and in all my postings.

In His love

James S.

Broer Ikan.

It is not the way to defense your theology or doctrine if just commenting like that.

Please give me your best theology counter based on the Scripture.

Thanks for participating.

In His love

James S.

= = = ==

Avalee.

All of you have given me your reasoning based on the doctrine and church teaching and the SOP, but I countered it all based on the Scripture.

As I say I will counter verse by verse to show that the Ten Commandments was over and keeping it will only lead to condemnation and death, but you just ignoring it.

Here is the verses again and tell me what you think about it.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 – “6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!”

Romans 7:9-10 –“9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.”

Romans 3:19,20 –“19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

Romans 6:23 –“The wages of sin is death.”

Romans 7:5,6 – “For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, WE HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM THE LAW SO THAT WE SERVE IN THE NEW WAY OF THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLD WAY OF THE WRITTEN CODE.”

Compare it with 2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

It is an easy and simple to understand the cripture but people like to make it difficult and contradicting each other to hold up their doctrines and teachings.

In His love

James S.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

James my only comment is I stand by what I posted on: posted June 19, 2002 12:29 PM. I will continue to post the truth for those who might happen to read your errors to help them and they can choose between the truth and error. I will leave it up to others to debate you. I am praying for you and for those who might be deceived by reading error that involves their salvation.

James, the following passages teach that sin and guilt cannot be transferred or imputed:

Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Romans 4
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The entire sanctuary system teaches that each person is responsible for their own sin and guilt. The Bible quotes you shared do not teach that we are guilty and condemned based on Adam's sin. I believe they teach that we inherit Adam's fallen nature and that consequently we automatically sin, and that it is this sin that condemns us.

Jesus did indeed pay the penalty of sin for everyone, but this does not mean that everyone is automatically justified and saved. We must consent to cooperate with the Holy Spirit who empowers us to lay aside sin and to experience the miracle of rebirth.

People do not inherit salvation or damnation. We must choose or refuse salvation or damnation in order to be saved or lost. The life, death, resurrection and mediation of Jesus gives everyone a second chance to be saved or lost.

Amen Mike...very well put.

[ June 21, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll post here a few passages from the Bible that show the Ten Commandments are every bit as much in force now as they've ever been.

"These words [the Ten Commandments] the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." -- Deuteronomy 5:22

"My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips." -- Psalm 89:34

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:17-19.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." -- Romans 3:31

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." -- James 2:10-12

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." -- Revelation 11:19. This occurs at the end of the present age; just what might be inside that "ark of His testament" in the heavenly temple? Why, the Ten Commandmments of course. The two tables of stone were placed in the earthly ark, and that earthly ark, as well as everything else having to do with the earthly temple, was built as a model of the heavenly.

"...Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith He, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." -- Hebrews 8:5

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." -- Hebrews 9:23

If the earthly "pattern" ark contained the Ten Commandments (and still does, wherever it may be hidden), then the heavenly ark also contains the Ten Commandments. As we speak.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." -- Revelation 22:14. The implications for those who do not keep His commandments are obvious.

[ June 21, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: John ]

Mike.

The bible quotes you had given refer to the sins committed by a law keeper (Ezekiel and Deuteronomy), but you overlooked one important thing that all men must die because of their nature they inherit from Adam since the fall. This fallen nature that is sin because it falls short of the glory of God, a nature of self-love that is against God’s agape love.

But men are not responsible for the nature they were born with and since they can do nothing from them selves to change it, God must make an act to fix this problem. And he did it through Christ redemption that saved men from the condemnation of death by giving them a second life after he justified all men in Christ. He did this to show and to prove his great love and mercy as he claims him self to be.

And since he justified all men and gives their life back, men will be responsible for their own sin if they live in sin. Christ didn’t redeem men from this sin, otherwise all will go to heaven no matter a believer or not.

Quote.
I believe they teach that we inherit Adam's fallen nature and that consequently we automatically sin, and that it is this sin that condemns us.
Unquote.

Christ redemption was related to the sin we inherit in our nature from Adam. “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” 12Therefore, JUST AS SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ONE MAN, AND DEATH THROUGH SIN, AND IN THIS WAY DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED. THE JUDGMENT FOLLOWED ONE SIN AND BROUGHT CONDEMNATION, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17FOR IF, BY THE TRESPASS OF THE ONE MAN, DEATH REIGNED THROUGH THAT ONE MAN, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Consequently, JUST AS THE RESULT OF ONE TRESPASS WAS CONDEMNATION FOR ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam sinned and got a change of nature, his descendants inherit this fallen nature that is a sin in it self. Christ redeemed men from this SIN (singular) not from their sins, otherwise all will go to heaven because this redemption is God’s grace that brought justification for life as a free gift to all men. And since the cross God will remember our sins and iniquities no more that means there is no law that will judge us and condemns us because Christ has made us just and holy once and for all. “When there is no law there is no transgression and sin will not be imputed.” Romans 4
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

A man die the second death not because he received the wages of his sins since God remember his sins no more and have forgiven him once and for all at the cross, but because he has a character that doesn’t fit heavenly principle and secondly, since our life is in Christ, only those who remain in Christ by faith will continue to live but a man that lives for himself (for the flesh) does not remain in Christ or Christ expelled him out (John 15:1-6), and out side of Christ there is no life but eternal death. You may read this conclusions in Romans, Galatians and in all Pauline epistle.

Quote.
Jesus did indeed pay the penalty of sin for everyone, but this does not mean that everyone is automatically justified and saved. We must consent to cooperate with the Holy Spirit who empowers us to lay aside sin and to experience the miracle of rebirth.
Unquote.

There are two kinds of Justification, the first is a free gift as God grace that brought life to all men, the second is justification by faith in Christ for to remain alive and fit for heaven. So, Christ dead automatically justified and saved all men as a free gift, but a man must remain in Christ by faith to remain alive and enter heaven.

The first Justification (a free gift) is our ticket to heaven and the second justification (by faith) is our fitness for heaven. This is clearly clarified in Romans 3:19-24 and Romans 8:1-4.

I think I have share the truth according to the Gospel of Christ, the question is could you understand this and accept this.

Please read my long post slowly to understand what I mean and to see the truth in it.

In His love

James S.

John thank you for posting truth to counter the error. You, Ikan, and Charlene are doing a wonderful job in doing this for our Saviour who came to this world to die on the cross for us.

James, I can no longer support your unbiblical views. You are dead wrong when it comnes to sin and salvation. I now believe that your thoughts and ideas are dangerous and deadly.

Moderators, please deny James access to the MSDAOL forum in accordance with the rules of this forum. Thank you.