Rod,
When you refer to a quote by the SOP, would you please add the reference.

Off the top of my head, and without studying your quote, i would offer this.

Jesus not only died for the sinner but for all beings in all worlds and universes. There were questions that needed answering about sin/Satan...Redeemer/Saviour. There were reasons why the cup of iniquity needed to be filled. The worlds needed to understand sin and its awfulness so it would never rise again. God is on trial in front of the entire universe......The victory was won on the cross and the reavelation of His character will be perfectly reproduced in His Saved people. This will ever be proof of His enabling Power and His Love, Mercy and justice. His perfect plan.

Rod,
I assume this is what you are refering to with the portion of the reference you mentioned.
************

quote:

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SOP
Desire of Ages
"Chap. 79 - "It is Finished"

Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. {DA 758.1}

To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. {DA 758.2}

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. {DA 758.3}

It was a being of wonderful power and glory that had set himself against God. Of Lucifer the Lord says, "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." Ezek. 28:12. Lucifer had been the covering cherub. He had stood in the light of God's presence. He had been the highest of all created beings, and had been foremost in revealing God's purposes to the universe. After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the more deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father. {DA 758.4}

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. {DA 759.2}

Satan led men into sin, and the plan of redemption was put in operation. For four thousand years, Christ was working for man's uplifting, and Satan for his ruin and degradation. And the heavenly universe beheld it all. {DA 759.3}

When Jesus came into the world, Satan's power was turned against Him. From the time when He appeared as a babe in Bethlehem, the usurper worked to bring about His destruction. In every possible way he sought to prevent Jesus from developing a perfect childhood, a faultless manhood, a holy ministry, and an unblemished sacrifice. But he was defeated. He could not lead Jesus into sin. He could not discourage Him, or drive Him from a work He had come on earth to do. From the desert to Calvary, the storm of Satan's wrath beat upon Him, but the more mercilessly it fell, the more firmly did the Son of God cling to the hand of His Father, and press on in the bloodstained path. All the efforts of Satan to oppress and overcome Him only brought out in a purer light His spotless character. {DA 759.4}

All heaven and the unfallen worlds had been witnesses to the controversy. With what intense interest did they follow the closing scenes of the conflict. They beheld the Saviour enter the garden of Gethsemane, His soul bowed down with the horror of a great darkness. They heard His bitter cry, "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." Matt. 26:39. As the Father's presence was withdrawn, they saw Him sorrowful with a bitterness of sorrow exceeding that of the last great struggle with death. The bloody sweat was forced from His pores, and fell in drops upon the ground. Thrice the prayer for deliverance was wrung from His lips. Heaven could no longer endure the sight, and a messenger of comfort was sent to the Son of God. {DA 759.5}

Heaven beheld the Victim betrayed into the hands of the murderous mob, and with mockery and violence hurried from one tribunal to another. It heard the sneers of His persecutors because of His lowly birth. It heard the denial with cursing and swearing by one of His best-loved disciples. It saw the frenzied work of Satan, and his power over the hearts of men. Oh, fearful scene! the Saviour seized at midnight in Gethsemane, dragged to and fro from palace to judgment hall, arraigned twice before the priests, twice before the Sanhedrin, twice before Pilate, and once before Herod, mocked, scourged, condemned, and led out to be crucified, bearing the heavy burden of the cross, amid the wailing of the daughters of Jerusalem and the jeering of the rabble. {DA 760.1}

Heaven viewed with grief and amazement Christ hanging upon the cross, blood flowing from His wounded temples, and sweat tinged with blood standing upon His brow. From His hands and feet the blood fell, drop by drop, upon the rock drilled for the foot of the cross. The wounds made by the nails gaped as the weight of His body dragged upon His hands. His labored breath grew quick and deep, as His soul panted under the burden of the sins of the world. All heaven was filled with wonder when the prayer of Christ was offered in the midst of His terrible suffering,--"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34. Yet there stood men, formed in the image of God, joining to crush out the life of His only-begotten Son. What a sight for the heavenly universe! {DA 760.2}

The principalities and powers of darkness were assembled around the cross, casting the hellish shadow of unbelief into the hearts of men. When the Lord created these beings to stand before His throne, they were beautiful and glorious. Their loveliness and holiness were in accordance with their exalted station. They were enriched with the wisdom of God, and girded with the panoply of heaven. They were Jehovah's ministers. But who could recognize in the fallen angels the glorious seraphim that once ministered in the heavenly courts? {DA 760.3}

Satanic agencies confederated with evil men in leading the people to believe Christ the chief of sinners, and to make Him the object of detestation. Those who mocked Christ as He hung upon the cross were imbued with the spirit of the first great rebel. He filled them with vile and loathsome speeches. He inspired their taunts. But by all this he gained nothing. {DA 760.4}

Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10. {DA 761.1}

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}

Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. {DA 761.5}

Through Jesus, God's mercy was manifested to men; but mercy does not set aside justice. The law reveals the attributes of God's character, and not a jot or tittle of it could be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. God did not change His law, but He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man's redemption. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Cor. 5:19. {DA 762.1}

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. {DA 762.2}

God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. Justice is the foundation of His throne, and the fruit of His love. It had been Satan's purpose to divorce mercy from truth and justice. He sought to prove that the righteousness of God's law is an enemy to peace. But Christ shows that in God's plan they are indissolubly joined together; the one cannot exist without the other. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Ps. 85:10. {DA 762.3}

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}

That the law which was spoken by God's own voice is faulty, that some specification has been set aside, is the claim which Satan now puts forward. It is the last great deception that he will bring upon the world. He needs not to assail the whole law; if he can lead men to disregard one precept, his purpose is gained. For "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10. By consenting to break one precept, men are brought under Satan's power. By substituting human law for God's law, Satan will seek to control the world. This work is foretold in prophecy. Of the great apostate power which is the representative of Satan, it is declared, "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand." Dan. 7:25. {DA 763.1}

Men will surely set up their laws to counterwork the laws of God. They will seek to compel the consciences of others, and in their zeal to enforce these laws they will oppress their fellow men. {DA 763.2}

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

Well, then, might the angels rejoice as they looked upon the Saviour's cross; for though they did not then understand all, they knew that the destruction of sin and Satan was forever made certain, that the redemption of man was assured, and that the universe was made eternally secure. Christ Himself fully comprehended the results of the sacrifice made upon Calvary. To all these He looked forward when upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished." {DA 764.4}

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[ September 01, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Justification & sanctification in microcosm. No splitting hairs. All are sinners & complete obedience is simply duty - saved or lost. Acceptance is in the beloved alone. But presumption can not abide in the beloved at all. Before Jesus returns all the dead & living will be judged and saved or lost according to the decision upon each individual case. Jesus will bring the results of that judgement. The idea of paper record or forensic salvation without conversion & sanctification is no salvation at all. Christ must fulfil His work within a person on Earth before the person is preadvent judged in Heaven.

If there are places you want more texts - feel free to look them up. All texts are KJV for your reference purposes.

John 3:1-21

Matthew 1:21

Isaiah 53:6 - 12

Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14

Revelation 14:7

Matthew 22:1 - 14

Luke 20:35 (accounted worthy = imputed & imparted worthiness)
Luke 21:36 (accounted worthy = imputed & imparted worthiness)

The accounting worthy through the merits of the Beloved occurs before the seal of the living God is authorized to be written in the forehead, and the seal of the living God is the proof of being accounted worthy through the merits of the Beloved and ratified by Heaven. It is the sealing of sanctification while on sinful Earth, to continue eternally in Heaven.

Ezekiel 20:12

Ezekiel 36:23

John 17:17 - 26

Ephesians 1:6 - 11

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Christ must cleanse His children internally & externally & they must cooperate to their uttermost. They can not remain defiled and enter Heaven. The unveiled glory of God consumes all traces of sin & sinners. Atonement for sin is accomplished by death alone. Either the death & resurrection & mediation of Jesus & the seal of the living God - or obliteration in the lake of fire. No other options offered in Scripture & SOP.

1 John 3:3 - 10

Colossians 1:27

2 Peter 1:1 - 12

Revelation 21:27

Hebrews 7:25 - 26

Ephesians 5:25 - 27

Hebrews 12:22 - 29

Deuteronomy 4:23 - 26

Nahum 1:1- 15

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The atonement on Calvary must be mediated before God the Father by His appointed High Priest in behalf of fallen humanity.

1 Corinthians 15:12-28

Thanks Ed for posting the DA at length. The SOP view of the great controversy between Christ and Satan is a treasure that few of us appreciate as we should. Who else on the face of the earth has been able to set out the characters of God, Christ and Satan like Ellen White? I can imagine that Christ would say of her, none born of women were greater than her, but he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than she.

I'm not sure if I have time to give full answers now but I'll make a start John.

You asked:

quote:

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Is the 'debt' not the 'result of what you did'? How did you obtain your debt and to whom are you indebted, and who exacted it?

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The wages of sin is death. The results of sin are death too. But it my sin that is the cause and root of the problem. It is the debt. It is the disease. The results are the symptoms of the disease.

How I obtained the debt is found in the definition of sin - transgession of the Law.

These things have all been said before though. Let's not cover the same ground. You may not agree with what I've said, but let's not ask each other to repeat ourselves. It might be helpful to paraphrase what the other person is saying and ask if the paraphrase is the intended idea.

quote:

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Christ did not die for that which we can be forgiven, or to enable God to forgive. He died to save us from Sin-the Master, so that we may be set free and become the sons of God. He died as the Shepherd facing the wolf.

---

This is your clearest statement so far. It says that God can forgive without the need for Christ to die. Of course you know John that in my view, this statement of is a repudiation of the entire scriptural plan of salvation. It is a denial of the deity and priesthood of Christ. The war is between Christ, Michael and Satan. God has spoken from heaven, this is my beloved Son. Listen to Him.

Re consigned vs. committed, the issue I was addressing is did God consign or commit all to the results of disobedience - a warped character - or to disobedience itself?

How if we look at the Passover ritual? Do you have any comments

[ September 01, 2002, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Here are a few verses from the New Testament that seem to stand out regarding forgiveness of sins. How do we understand these verses if his death/blood was not required for the forgiveness of sins?

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission (forgiveness) of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (forgiveness).

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Thanks for joining us LL. Good texts.

John, at my age I still get impatient at times. I should do better. The sentence about your clearest statement so far wasn't meant as a put down. Sorry.

You wrote:

quote:

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However the common understanding of the purposes he judges for and the standards he judges by is missing the mark. This has to do with the understanding of God's righteousness, and I will post more on that later.

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I'll wait to hear more.

I understood that you believe Christ is a created being. Is that right?

I said above that your position is a denial of the deity and priesthood of Christ. I say that because the idea that Christ is a lesser member of the deity makes him no member at all. A being is either God or is not. There can be no such thing as degrees of God. And if Christ is not fully God, then neither is His remedy for sin - His sacrifice of Himself - fully divine. And if the sacrifice is not fully divine, it would be easy to mentally discard it.

I see a connection between the two.

And you're conclusions would be right regarding His priesthood if Christ is not fully God. His priesthood is based on His divinity as much as it is on his humanity. He has life unborrowed and original within himself. This is why he is a priest after Melchizadeck's order - His native eternal nature, which in the plans of Providence is a prerequisite to his unchanging priesthood.

Christ was never begotten in the sense of time. Speaking of himself he said he is the "I am", the self-existant one. He was however begotten into the priesthood by virture of his perfect human life. This is the treasure that the Father has given us - Christ as fully God and as fully Man.

In SDA history, many of the pioneers were confused on the nature of Christ. Many of them had Arian leanings. But Christ was leading our movement, and we were given a flood of light on the issues of the great controversy. You'll not find a clearer picture in Christendom of the war that has raged between Christ and Satan. The way that we arrived at this picture is through a clearer understanding of the exhalted position of Christ. In obedience to the command of heaven, we have listened to Him.

From the beginning, the role of Christ has been that of the Word, of Captian of the Host. Satan became jellous and ever since has attempted to undermine Him. He would like nothing more than to do away with His sacrifice in the minds of humanity because this is the only means of our redemption and he will have us in his power.

Do you see no danger John in telling people that God can forgive us without Christ. Think about the implications if you are wrong. If God is saying, Christ my son is the sacrifice for sin, and you say No His isn't and just one person is lead astray as a result, what will you say to God in the judgment?

[ September 02, 2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Peace be with you all.

I haven't posted because I have been prayerfully considering how to answer you, Mark. I am sorry that I tested your patience. I did not mean to.

There is something to be realized. From the time of Satan's fall to the cross, the whole Universe was in a state of spiritual Babel. There was confusion of thought, understanding and meaning. When God spoke of righteousness, he meant one thing, when Satan spoke of righteousness he meant another thing. When God spoke of justice, he meant one thing, when Satan spoke of justice he meant another thing. When God spoke of mercy, he meant one thing, when Satan spoke of mercy he meant another thing. When God spoke of forgiveness, he meant one thing, when Satan spoke of forgiveness he meant another thing. And so on, whatever God said Satan twisted the meaning to be something else, that is, he misrepresented it. This spiritual Babel is still in this world in which we live.

You probably can identify with others having prejudiced ideas that are ill informed against Adventists. I can assure you that there are Adventists that likewise have prejudiced ideas that are ill informed. Often times people themselves do not know what they are talking about or what they hold. The point is, in this spiritual Babel, the same words are used with different meaning. If we are to communicate meaningfully we have to be patient and willing to define our thought until we both understand them as the other means it

As default I use scriptural definition/meaning of words. That of course may or may not be what others understand it to be, so we need to communicate. I can adapt to other language temporarily but it is necessary to define it.

The purpose of asking is not to repeat yourself. But what may seem obvious to you, could be far from that to others. Second, are you able to examine your thought in context of the questions asked? How about in the context of what you yourself are saying? In the DA quotations that Edward brought forth is much truth. What do you hear?

The whole is meaningful, but to focus re forgiveness I will repeat here a couple paragraphs.

quote:

---

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven , and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

---

It says here He proved that God … can forgive. not enabled, made possible

How does that compare with your statement?

quote:

---

This is your clearest statement so far. It says that God can forgive without the need for Christ to die. Of course you know John that in my view, this statement of is a repudiation of the entire scriptural plan of salvation. It is a denial of the deity and priesthood of Christ. The war is between Christ, Michael and Satan. God has spoken from heaven, this is my beloved Son. Listen to Him.

---

Here is the statement I made

quote:

---

Christ did not die for that which we can be forgiven, or to enable God to forgive. He died to save us from Sin-the Master, so that we may be set free and become the sons of God. He died as the Shepherd facing the wolf.

---

Please give it some thought.

It is indeed so that 'The war is between Christ, Michael and Satan. God has spoken from heaven, this is my beloved Son. Listen to Him.'

Christ came to declare and reveal the truth of God's character. He certified it by his blood. The Father certified it by raising him from the dead.

Just to clarify possible misconception. I would like to state the following.

The Law is holy, just, and good. There is nothing the matter with the Law. It was given by God for the purpose of being unto life. However Sin taking occasion by the law deceived me and by it slew me. There is therefore in every man naturally the law of sin and death. This I have called the Legal-istic righteousness. While there is more to it, this is one very important part which blinds men so they cannot see God. The 'Law of the spirit of life' in Christ Jesus has set me free from the 'Law of Sin and death'.

I am sorry Mark, please, it is not fair to make a statement that will prejudice others and raise a topic, which according to Forum rules, I cannot answer meaningfully. Would it be fair for me to say that you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God according to scripture, and then not allow you to answer meaningfully? Mark, I stand before the Father and his Son.

That which is highly esteemed among men is foolishness with God, and he who will be greatest let him be as the lesser!

By the way Mark, It is not consigned vs. committed. It is consigned, committed vs. concluded. Anyhow I know that we know that we want to address that which is concluded

I will be posting on the Righteousness of God soon.

Shalom

Regarding other personal beliefs, your right that we don't want to widen the focus too much. But on the other hand its helpful to know the basic assumptions that we are using. So, for example, you're about to post about the righteousness of God. That's likely going to be helpful so that I understand better what you're saying on this topic. Regarding the deity of Christ, because it has a direct bearing on His Priesthood which is at the root of this topic, the moderators shouldn't object. So long as there is a fairly clear connection with the topic I think were fine. (If they do object, a separate thread can be started.)

Back to your statement:

quote:

---

Christ did not die for that which we can be forgiven, or to enable God to forgive. He died to save us from Sin-the Master, so that we may be set free and become the sons of God. He died as the Shepherd facing the wolf.

---

In your last post you seem to be saying I have mistated your thought.

I gave it some thought and I don't see it. What I see is a minimization of the role of Christ. One of the tests of any doctrine is does it magnify the Word - Jesus. Please show how it does this.

Well, I should close for now.