I know the Bible says the wages of sin is death and that Jesus came to free us from sin and bondage. Jesus was the lamb of scafrifice, the only one who COULD die for us, no angel could make the sacrific, no humane either.Jesus made the plan of salavation with the Father before the foundation of the world. Also Jesus said "No greater love is there than a man lay down his life for his friend"
Jesus has done all and everything there is for our salavation, there is not one thing I could (DO) to save myself, not even to follow Christ example would save me,only the blood of the cross can do that.Jesus presious blood, and belive me to God it is very presious,can WASH my sins away.

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Originally posted by Charlene Van Hook:
The Signs of the Times----DT- 05-02-92
The Fullness of Christ's Grace

"The grace of Jesus Christ alone can change the heart of stone to a heart of flesh, and make it alive unto God. Men may perform great deeds in the eyes of the world; their achievements may be many and of a high order in the sight of men, but all the talent, all the skill, all the ability of the world will fail to transform the character and make a degraded child of sin a child of God, an heir of heaven. Men have no power to justify the soul, to sanctify the heart. Moral disease cannot be healed save through the power of the great Physician. The highest gift of heaven, even the Only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, is alone able to redeem the lost. What gratitude, what love, should fill our hearts as we contemplate the love of God! The heart should be softened and subdued as we meditate upon the risk that Jesus took in order that man might be elevated and restored. The world's Redeemer
endured sufferings commensurate to all the guilt of a lost world. The sacrifice of Christ on Calvary's cross is a consideration that surpasses all the overwhelming power of sin; and when a sense of sin presses upon the heart of the sinner, and the burden seems intolerable, Jesus invites him to look to him and live. There is power in Christ to cleanse the soul. "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Without God sending His Son to die/pay the wage for our sins that we may have His free gift of eternal life, we are lost. The sanctuary services teach us the real meaning of the atonement.

The alternate theory is teaching us we must save ourselves, based on the life of Jesus, which means that His death meant nothing. It would take a very strong twist of the "atonement" truth to come to this conclusion. This is the theory of Babal.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald--T- 09-22-96
Our Advocate and Our Adversary

"Satan would cover the people of God with blackness, and ruin them; but Jesus interposes. Although they had sinned, yet Jesus took the guilt of their sins upon his own soul. He snatched the race as a brand from the fire. With
his long human arm he encircled humanity, while with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the infinite God. And thus man has strength given him
that he may overcome Satan, and triumph in God. Help is brought within the reach of perishing souls; the adversary is rebuked."

Praise the Lord,

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Sherlynnu,

Thank you for reposting this very simple truth.

God Bless,

SL, I think you're right: This is at the root of the discussion. You said:

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. . . there is not one thing I could (DO) to save myself, not even to follow Christ example would save me,only the blood of the cross can do that. Jesus presious blood, and belive me to God it is very presious,can WASH my sins away.

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There are two passages in the Bible that have always intrigued me. (See below.) The reason that they do is that they are written by John the Beloved, the one closest to Christ and most like Him in character, and because he writes these statements as though they are his most profound thoughts. Here they are:

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19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 19:35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. John 19:34-37.

5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. . . . 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. I John 5:5-13

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Clearly, sublime truths are being revealed here to mortals. A merciful and gracious God is stooping down and bending low to lift us up. No one can grasp the full depth of what is being said. But what are the basic ideas being expressed? We have six witnesses. Three in heaven and three on earth. One is both in heaven and on earth - the Spirit. What are the implications? Why aren't there seven witnesses, or are there? What do they say? Why is it the water and the blood that speak on earth? Why does John suddenly interrupt his narrative to give his personal testimony at the scene where the side of Christ is pierced and water and the blood come gushing out? Why does he draw special attention to the fact that Christ "came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood."

[ September 03, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

This topic in part is Did Christ bear our sin/guilt?

Was Christ sacrificed for us?

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1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

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This text not only says that Christ was sacrificed for us but refers to Christ as our passover.

What does Christ being our passover being sacrificed for us mean?

Hello, all.

I had a church member that was steeped in this stuff. Three years of dialoguing with him gave me a big opportunity to sort through quite a bit.

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2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

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Notice that this text predicts that there would be heresies so dangerous that they could cause people to be lost. Notice also that part of that heresy would be a denying that Christ has bought us. Thus this text actually predicts that we would have reason in these last days to have a discussion like this. This topic on this forum is therefore a fulfillment of prophecy.

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Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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My member's wife went so far as to tell me that Christ dying in our place, shedding His blood, meeting the claims of the law that demands the death of the sinner, was PAGAN. She was thus counting the blood of the covenant that had sanctified her an unholy thing. Another fulfillment of prophecy.

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These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They do away with the necessity for the atonement and make man his own savior. These theories regarding God make His word of no effect, and those who accept them are in great danger of being led finally to look upon the whole Bible as a fiction. (MH 428, 429)

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That's speaking of pantheistic theories. Peculiarly, much of what she wrote about the alpha of apostasy is also true about this theology. We know what the Jewish economy was, the sacrificial system. This theology does away with the Christian economy, the antitype of the Jewish economy. The blood meeting the claims of the law, sprinkled toward the ark, the lambs dying in the place of the sinner, all this is made of none effect.

In fact, the lady who sends out Graham Maxwell's tapes and books, one of the prinicpal proponents of this theology, told me that Graham thinks there probably isn't a sanctuary in heaven, but if there is, it's a sandbox illustration for the angels who need it. Now since we are told that one of the heresies at the end would be the idea that there is no sanctuary, and since the conclusions of this theology mimic those of the alpha, one wonders if all this might be part of the omega. Perhaps we are discussing a part of the teachings that will form the omega of apostasy.

One of my teachers in college, Dick Winn, was into this stuff. He eventually came to look upon the Bible as a fable. Perhaps he doesn't now. I hope he doesn't. yet that is exactly what EGW said was part of the results of pantheistic theories.

If there is no transfer of sin from the sinner to Christ, and thus none from Christ to the heavenly sanctuary, and thus none to cleanse the sanctuary of in 1844, and if Christ did not have to die as our substitute, then why would anyone have to suffer the penalty of sin after the 1000 years? In other words, why would the wicked have to burn in hell fire? if God is merciful that He isn't just, and if He would forgive us even if Jesus didn't pay the price, why would the wicked be punished by anything other than natural results?

Usually people think of this when they think of this theology, not of the atonement. yet there is a major problem with this idea.

Remember what EW and GC88 and GC11 say that the saints will be doing in heaven during the 1000 years? Judging the wicked, deciding with Jesus how long they are going to burn. Some burn longer, and some burn shorter. It all depends on their sins, and what Jesus and the saints decide.

Are they getting their questions answered? Sure, but EW and GC don't mention that. They only mention the sentencing.

If we only get our questions answered, if we only see if God is fair, then we aren't judging the world, the lost angels, the wicked like Paul and EGW said. Instead we are judging the Judge. If we sentence the wicked, then we are judging the very ones Paul and EGW said we would be judging.

One last point: EGW never said that righteousness by faith is the third angel's message in verity. She said that justification by faith is. Now justification is judicial pardon. You will notice that those who are into this theology don't really like the word justification. They prefer the word righteousness. To them the third angel's message is a revelation fo God's character to the world, but for them the attribute of justice is removed from love. For them, for those who have thought it through, the third angel's message becomes a repudiation of the doctrine of justification, that through faith in the blood of the Substitute, the Father judicially pardons us and transforms us. So in essence, those who have thought through and accepted this theology believe that the third angel's message is a repudiation of the very thing that EGW said that the third angel's message is.

Perhaps it is indeed part of the omega.

It is so hard to get through to those into this stuff. It's part of a spiritual ego trip. Those who are spiritually mature believe this way. those those still immature, those who still believe they need a mediator between them and a holy God, there is one available, they say. But they have arrived, and they know the truth, that they can be saved without a mediator.

Present a text or quote that says otherwise, and they will tell you, "That's God speaking our language to get our attention." Never mind that the illustration doesn't fit, that language communicates thoughts, that the thoughts in the Word or the Testimonies tell us that we need a substitute, the blood, the sanctuary, or justification. Never mind that language is just words, and that the thoughts are still valid. Encased in such faulty logic, no text, no quote can phase them, for everything that doesn't fit becomes God speaking our language to get our attention, screaming and hollering like some parent out of control, but He isn't really that way, they say.

How do they know? How do they know that it isn't the other way around? That God is all justice and no mercy, that He just speaks that way in His Word and the Testimonies to hook us?

Much more sound is to believe it all. For all others are "fools" (Lk. 24:25).

Daryl,
The contrast is that when God judged this group of the living, one group He would (pass over), one group He would (pass through). The difference in passing over and passing through, was the blood of the lamb slain to be roasted whole & not sodden. That lamb typified the One who would die, yet have His life retained in Himself, and would die via the Second Death experience that would torment Him but not force His life from Him, but be the time He would voluntarily lay it down after drinking it's full penalty in our behalf.

Jesus Christ on Calvary is the only one who fits. The lamb & its applied blood in the Egypt of the Exodus time, were then present symbols of Calvary & the work done there and after His ressurection as He mediated the merits of His life (what the blood symbolizes).

Because God's representative passed over the homes with the token of faith in Calvary yet future spared them, but roasted the Lamb Himself instead of them. The took Him into themselves in symbolic lessons by eating of the lamb representing Him after the manner relayed to them by Moses.

No where else were they to eat unsodden meat. The symbolism = righteousness imputed - lamb's blood on the door, righteousness imparted - lamb's blood in the meat.

No blood on the door also = no blood in the meat -no passover lamb. No passing over by the death angel, they themselves are that night held responsible for their sins, without a Saviour.

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Bob thanks for replying.

The 4 SOP quotes found by phrase search "is the third angel's message in verity." = 4 hits

1.
Christ and His Righteousness.--Christ and His righteousness--let this be our platform, the very life of our faith.--Review and Herald, Aug. 31, 1905. {Ev 190.2}

The Third Angel's Message in Verity.--Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity."-- Review and Herald, April 1, 1890. {Ev 190.3}

It Presents an Uplifted Saviour.--This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure. {Ev 190.4}

The uplifted Saviour is to appear in His efficacious work as the Lamb slain, sitting upon the throne, to dispense the priceless covenant blessings, the benefits He died to purchase for every soul who should believe on Him. John could not express that love in words; it was too deep, too broad; he calls upon the human family to behold it. Christ is pleading for the church in the heavenly courts above, pleading for those for whom He paid the redemption price of His own lifeblood. Centuries, ages, can never diminish the efficacy of this atoning sacrifice. The message of the gospel of His grace was to be given to the church in clear and distinct lines, that the world should no longer say that Seventh-day Adventists talk the law, the law, but do not teach or believe Christ. {Ev 191.1}

The efficacy of the blood of Christ was to be presented to the people with freshness and power, that their faith might lay hold upon its merits. . . . {Ev 191.2}

For years the church has been looking to man, and expecting much from man, but not looking to Jesus, in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. Therefore God gave to His servants a testimony that presented the truth as it is in Jesus, which is the third angel's message, in clear, distinct lines.--Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 91-93. (1896) {Ev 191.3}

Christ vs. Penance.--When the third angel's message is preached as it should be, power attends its proclamation, and it becomes an abiding influence. It must be attended with divine power, or it will accomplish nothing. . . . {Ev 191.4}

Penances, mortifications of the flesh, constant confession of sin, without sincere repentance; fasts, festivals, and outward observances, unaccompanied by true devotion--all these are of no value whatever. The sacrifice of Christ is sufficient; He made a whole, efficacious offering to God; and human effort without the merit of Christ, is worthless. . . . {Ev 192.1}

The plan of salvation is not understood to be that through which divine power is brought to man in order that his human effort may be wholly successful. . . . {Ev 192.2}

Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power.--Review and Herald, Aug. 19, 1890. {Ev 192.3}

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2.
Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message,
200
and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity."--1SM 372 (1890). {LDE 199.4}

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders [E.J.] Waggoner and [A. T.] Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. {LDE 200.1}

Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2}

The message of Christ's righteousness is to sound from one end of the earth to the other to prepare the way of the Lord. This is the glory of God, which closes the work of the third angel.--6T 19 (1900). {LDE 200.3}
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3.
Some of our brethren have expressed fears that we shall dwell too much upon the subject of justification by faith, but I hope and pray that none will be needlessly alarmed; for there is no danger in presenting this doctrine as it is set forth in the Scriptures. If there had not been a remissness in the past to properly instruct the people of God, there would not now be a necessity of calling a special attention to it.... The exceeding great and precious promises given us in the Holy Scriptures have been lost sight of to a great extent, just as the enemy of all righteousness designed that they should be. He has cast his own dark shadow between us and our God, that we may not see the true character of God. The Lord has proclaimed Himself to be "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth." {1SM 372.1}

Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message, in verity."-- The Review and Herald, April 1, 1890. {1SM 372.2}
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4.
Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity." The prophet declares, "And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory." Brightness, glory, and power are to be connected with the third angel's message, and conviction will follow wherever it is preached in demonstration of the Spirit. How will any of our brethren know when this light shall come to the people of God? As yet, we certainly have not seen the light that answers to this description. God has light for his people, and all who will accept it will see the sinfulness of remaining in a lukewarm condition; they will heed the counsel of the True Witness when he says, "Be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." {RH, April 1, 1890 par. 8}

[ September 04, 2002, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

June 11, 1902 The Abiding Trust
By Mrs. E. G. White.

The Gospel
The gospel -- what a treasure-house of knowledge! It is not as a pool that evaporates; not as a broken cistern that loses its treasure, leaving mud and decaying vegetation behind; not as a fountain that once sent forth a living, refreshing, cooling stream, but has ceased to send forth its cooling waters. Your life may be a living spring, that leaps from rock to rock, clear and sparkling with life, refreshing the weary, the thirsty, the heavy-laden. {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 1}

These promises are not made to a few, but to all who will come to the heavenly banquet that God has prepared in sending his Son to our world to die in our behalf, that through faith in him we should become one with God. The praise and glory of his grace, power, and wisdom is the effectual salvation of a peculiar people, zealous of good works. {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 2}

Predestination.
Wonderful possibilities are provided for every one who has faith in Christ. No walls are built to keep any living soul from salvation. The predestination, or election, of which God speaks, includes all who will accept Christ as a personal Saviour, who will return to their loyalty, to perfect obedience to all God's commandments. This is the effectual salvation of a peculiar people, chosen by God from among men. All who are willing to be saved by Christ are the elect of God. It is the obedient who are predestinated from the foundation of the world. "To as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to as many as believed on him." {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 3}

Seal of God
What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of his people? It is a mark which angels, not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption. The intelligent mind has seen the sign of the cross of Calvary in the Lord's adopted sons and daughters. The sin of the transgression of the law of God is taken away. They have on the wedding garment, and are obedient and faithful to all God's commands. {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 4}

The Church
The Lord's church is to him the dearest object on earth. Creation itself was originated in the purpose of God that he might glorify himself in the redemption of his people. {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 5}

The Plan of Redemption
By Christ the work upon which the fulfillment of God's purpose rests, was accomplished. This was the agreement in the councils of the God-head. The Father purposed in counsel with his Son that the human family should be tested and proved, to see whether they would be allured by the temptations of Satan, or whether they would make Christ their righteousness, keeping God's commandments, and live. God gave to his Son all who would be true and loyal. Christ covenanted to redeem them from the power of Satan, at the price of his own life. {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 6}

The Holy Spirit's Work
When Christ ascended to heaven, the Holy Spirit took his place, and was a perfect representation of him. It is the work of the Spirit to administer the richest grace, and make it effectual in the hearts of God's people, that the elect may be gathered into one family. We need more quiet, abiding trust in God, and then the very best and highest activities will be put forth. Not one false movement will be made. {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 7}

Bob, you're the second person in the short life of the thread to mention Maxwell. I'm not sure if the people I know are familiar with him, but you are right about the similarity between their beliefs and Maxwell's.

It is significant to me that this theology is being contrasted to the theology of 1888.

I have heard the same charges by others - not by John or my friends - that you mentioned - that substitution is Pagan. This person was also influenced by Maxwell.

Mark,

You will find that many medical professionals espouse this, since he taught theology for years out at Loma Linda. And his teaching the SS lessons 6 weeks early, and then sending out tapes of those classes, has spread his ideas hither and yon.

After hearing these things, the lingo and all, in my SS class, I was visiting family in another state. A visiting teacher taught the class. He said, "Let's summarize what we've been studying thus far," and he then proceeded to ignore the lesson. He redefined the sin problem, and then asked what the solution might be.

He was using the same lingo as my church member. I shot up my hand and said, "You find a substitute." He said, "How would that work." I explained it, and then he said, "That's a thought. Anyone else have a thought?"

If you know what to listen for, you can tell who has been listening to those tapes.

I wrote a critique of Servants and Friends. Eventually the lady who sends out his books and tapes got ahold of it and called me. She was mad. At one point she said that I had misunderstood, a common ploy of theirs, and that if I had questions about what he was saying, I should have asked him instead of just going by his books and tapes.

I pondered that for awhile and then wrote her and asked her to get Maxwell to say whether he agreed or disagreed with four propositions. If he agreed, then I was indeed mistaken, and would apologize to all who had seen my critique.

She wrote back and said that if I had questions I could read Maxwell's books and listen to his tapes.

After a friend of mine urged me to dialogue with Maxwell, I wrote again and proposed that we dialogue with one ground rule: If one of us provided three inspired statements spanning something like 30 years, the other would agree that what those statements said was the truth. I never heard from either the lady or him.

If someone who claims to be an Adventist can't say that something is true when God said it was, then there really is no point in discussing the matter with them. By every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God we are to live. "It is written."