If Jesus died merely to demonstrate God's undying love for us, why did He wait until 31 AD? And why did He allow the Jews and the Romans to nail Him to a cross? Why didn't the Father do it?

Bob, my brother is a doctor, an LLU grad, and he attended several SS classes with Maxwell. He was vexed by what he heard, especially as he saw the results of Maxwell's teaching played out in the lives of some of his closest friends.

You suggest that we shouldn't dialogue unless there are some ground rules, the main one being that we give scripture its obvious and intended meaning based on the common usage of language. I think that's a good idea, and I think John would agree to that.

In the Alpha crises, Sister White did not cut off discussion with Kellogg at any point that I am aware of. She met his arguments and wrote at length about Kellogg’s ideas in Volume 8 of the Testimonies. I think it becomes us to encourage dialogue.

Also, any time our ideas are closely tested, we should learn something. John and others likely have some valid points in what they are saying. If there wasn’t a fair bit of truth in their arguments, their would be no challenge in meeting them.

I, like many others I assume, am carefully reading and weighing the arguments/positions of this very 'critical' topic.

For now, this is just a message to all posters in this forum. I would like to pose my own questions when I have fully digested (if I can), all that has been written.

Please contributors, (maybe I am talking for others that are viewing this forum, maybe not), but please try to make clear concise statements. Maybe this is just my problem I am not sure, but it is difficult to follow a long post when having to scroll up and down, up and down to check, double check, and sometimes triple check what has been written. We are reading what you have spent considerable time to lay out for us, and I thank you all so much for the time you invest.

One thing though, maybe I have missed it, but is there a short, real short, table like document that could be had to line up the "older view" with the "newer view" so that at a glance we can see the major differences? That way, I would be able to quickly reference a thought/position that arises in a post to see which 'view' the particular thought/position applies to.

Continue to grow... always in Christ.

Dedreic

Thank you for the quotes Ed. I'm sure you're getting at something.

I nominate Bob to set out the old view. Would you mind Bob? I think you're more knowledgable about this than most of us who hold the old view. Do it however you think is best.

Sorry, me again, I must apologize for the appearance of my previous message. I realize mpw that I was reading the first page of this forum and that my post would occur at the bottom of page two, where the message looks out of place.

My inquiry still stands as to the availability of a "cheat sheet" to help decipher the opposing views.

Continue to grow.... always in Christ.

Dedreic

Why the stress upon "I am he" & "for if ye believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins." What is it about the "I am he" that takes away any & all sins ?

John 8:
21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

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What do you do to reconcile Isaiah ch 53:if Jesus was just a moral theory?
Isaiah 53:
1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

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Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom <3739> God <2316> hath set forth <4388> (5639) to be a propitiation <2435> through <1223> faith <4102> in <1722> his <846> blood <129>, to <1519> declare <1732> his <846> righteousness <1343> for <1223> the remission <3929> of sins <265> that are past <4266> (5761), through <1722> the forbearance <463> of God <2316>;

1 John 2:2 And <2532> he <846> is <2076> (5748) the propitiation <2434> for <4012> our <2257> sins <266>: and <1161> not <3756> for <4012> ours <2251> only <3440>, but <235> also <2532> for <4012> the sins of the whole <3650> world <2889>.

1 John 4:10 Herein <1722> <5129> is <2076> (5748) love <26>, not <3754> that <3756> we <2249> loved <25> (5656) God <2316>, but <235> that <3754> he <846> loved <25> (5656) us <2248>, and <2532> sent <649> (5656) his <846> Son <5207> to be the propitiation <2434> for <4012> our <2257> sins <266>.

2434 ilamov hilasmos hil-as-mos’

a root word; TDNT-3:301,362; n m

AV-propitiation 2; 2

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

2435 ilasthrion hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on

from a derivative of 2433; TDNT-3:318,362; n n

AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2

1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) a expiatory victim

2435. ilasthrion hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on; neuter of a derivative of 2433; an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple):—mercyseat, propitiation.

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Messiah - Lived above the mercy seat of the ark, in His pre-incarnate form. He was & still is the Shekinah Himself.

"Christ was their instructor. As He had been with them in the wilderness, so He was still to be their teacher and guide. In the tabernacle and the temple His glory dwelt in the holy shekinah above the mercy seat. In their behalf He constantly manifested the riches of His love and patience. " {COL 288.1}
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"Israel had been a favored people; God had made their temple His habitation; it was "beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth." Ps. 48:2. The record of more than a thousand years of Christ's guardian care and tender love, such as a father bears his only child, was there. In that temple the prophets had uttered their solemn warnings. There had the burning censers waved, while incense, mingled with the prayers of the worshipers, had ascended to God. There the blood of beasts had flowed, typical of the blood of Christ. There Jehovah had manifested His glory above the mercy seat. There the priests had officiated, and the pomp of symbol and ceremony had gone on for ages. But all this must have an end. {DA 576.2}
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Two lovely cherubs, one on each end of the ark, stood with their wings outstretched above it, and touching each other above the head of Jesus as He stood before the mercy seat. Their faces were turned toward each other, and they looked downward to the ark, representing all the angelic host looking with interest at the law of God. Between the cherubim was a golden censer, and as the prayers of the saints, offered in faith, came up to Jesus, and He presented them to His father, a cloud of fragrance arose from the incense, looking like smoke of most beautiful colors. Above the place where Jesus stood, before the ark, was exceedingly bright glory that I could not look upon; it appeared like the throne of God. As the incense ascended to the Father, the excellent glory came from the throne to Jesus, and from Him it was shed upon those whose prayers had come up like sweet incense. Light poured upon Jesus in rich abundance and overshadowed the mercy seat, and the train of glory filled the temple. I could not long look upon the surpassing brightness. No language can describe it. I was overwhelmed and turned from the majesty and glory of the scene. {EW 252.1}

I was also shown a sanctuary upon the earth containing two apartments. It resembled the one in heaven, and I was told that it was a figure of the heavenly. The furniture of the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary was like that in the first apartment of the heavenly. The veil was lifted, and I looked into the holy of holies and saw that the furniture was the same as in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. The priest ministered in both apartments of the earthly. He went daily into the first apartment, but entered the most holy only once a year, to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly sanctuary. The priests entered into the earthly with the blood of an animal as an offering for sin. Christ entered into the heavenly sanctuary by the offering of His own blood. The earthly priests were removed by death; therefore they could not continue long; but Jesus was a priest forever. Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come. And in the wisdom of God the particulars of this work were given us that we might, by looking to them, understand the work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary. {EW 252.2}

As Jesus died on Calvary, He cried, "It is finished," and the veil of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom. This was to show that the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with the priests in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be offered by Himself in the heavenly sanctuary. As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary. {EW 253.1}

[ September 05, 2002, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Just posting a note to let you all know that Bob informed me that he will be away until Monday, therefore, unless he gets on a computer while he is away, you may not hear from him again until then regarding your request for Bob to provide, and I quote, "the old view."

God Bless you all.

I am observing all this discussion and would like to comment and perhaps tie together some of the various thoughts that have been put forth. First of all, I would like to say that we (John and I) do believe in the exalted position of Christ. We accept all that the Bible says about God's
Son. It is man's doctrines and interpretations that we lay aside so that we may see what God has to say to us in His word about His glorious character and purposes for man. Often, words, expressions, cliches are used without really stopping to think what they mean. Bible texts can be quoted without really stopping to think about what is meant for our interpretation is pre-formed or pre-judged. This inhibits genuine thought and growth. For example; let's stop and think:

When the Saviour said:"this is my body and this is my blood" "take eat and take drink" we know he was instituting a symbolic service. We know that the blood represents the life. Jesus said, 'the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life'. We know that words are thoughts. We know that the Saviour said He spoke not his own thoughts but the thoughts of the Father. So as we think about the meaning here we see that Jesus was bringing to us the mind of God, His thoughts and purposes. As we eat them, take them into our own thoughts and make them ours we become one with God and with His Son as the Saviour prayed for in the garden. It was and is the purpose of the Son to bring many sons to his Father in heaven. In order to do this we must let the Saviour, by his spirit, into our hearts and minds that we may become sons and daughters. It is the spirit of the Son in us that cries, Abba, Father.

The question that was posted deals with How does Christ save Us? What did His death do for me as far as my salvation? What did His life do for me? And what is He doing for me now? How did he fulfill all the rituals of the law that were given to point men to Him and to prophesy His coming"? Was His death necessary in order for God to forgive? Or is it because something more than forgiveness is needed in order for the universe to be secure forever.

I would like to put forth scriptural answers to these questions beginning with the last one.
In Hebrews chapter 10 it says that the sacrifices could not make perfect those who offered them. They were but a reminder of their sins. Christ said that God did not desire sacrifice and offering (though the law required them) but He came to do the will of God and by that will we are sanctified. It says that the covenant He will make with them will be to put His laws in their hearts and minds.

In Isaiah 55:7 the sinner is invited to come to God, for He will have mercy and abundantly or freely pardon. God has always been willing to forgive and to cast our sins into the depths of the sea and remember them no more. But something more is needed for the universe to be secure. The heart had to be changed from a heart of stone and a new heart of flesh and new spirit placed within man. That is accomplished when we let the blood (spirit) of the Son of God cleanse us from sin. When the spirit of the Son of God, who said, 'lo I come to do thy will, my God and not my will but Thy will', comes into our hearts and lives, we die and are born again a new creature delighting to do the will of God, and are empowered to do that will by the living Saviour who dwells within.
Was that too long a sentence? Can you follow me?
Going backward in my list of questions.

How did he fulfill the shadow of the law that were given to point men to Him and to prophesy His coming? Mark, you asked about the passover and of course there are so many more that pointed to Him. He was the Lamb, the wave-sheaf or first fruits, He is the bread, the manna, He is the cleanser of the old leaven of sin, the blood upon the door, the serpent in the wilderness, the water that flowed from the rock and on and on the old testament fortold the wonderful power and ability of the Saviour to do in us all that we could never do for ourselves. And there were those who saw beyond the symbol to the purpose God was trying to accomplish. They entered in by faith into that Son relationship and became the faithful of Hebrews chapter 11. They were the friends of God who walked with Him and talked with Him and were used by Him to help others to follow.

What did His life do for me and what is He doing for me now? Now, in heaven He is a priest after the order of Melchizadek ministering to me the things of God. All that He lived in this life, living the life of the Son of God, He freely gives to those who allow His spirit to enter their hearts.

Now, to the last and perhaps most sought after answer:

What did His death do for me as far as my salvation? In Philippians 2 it says that He was obedient even unto the death of the cross. The Saviour said in Mark 8:34 that whoever would follow Him must take up his cross. Where did the Lord take His cross? To Calvary , to be crucified on it. We must do the same. We each are given a cross and it is whatever in our lives that God will use to put to death all self-will , all desire for self-exaltation, all self-righteousness so that we can truly say with the Saviour, I delight to do thy will, oh my God. To be obedient unto death, the death of self that the Son of God may be born in our hearts. When this happens old things pass away and all things become new. The scales fall off our eyes and we who were blind now see. We are given a robe of His righteousness, but it is not a robe covering our filthiness beneath. It is the only robe we wear! Underneath is a man washed in the blood (spirit) of the Son of God, a new creature, a new life. A life that is really Christ in us, the hope of glory. A life of the faith of the Son of God. Who loved us and gave himself for us. The word used in that verse, propitiation, means to make favourable. Who is it that needed to be made favourable? Did God need to be made favourable to us? It was He who so loved the world that He gave us His Son. We are the ones who had strayed from Him. We are the sheep that needed to be brought back to the fold. The shepherd did not need to be made more loving or forgiving. It is man who is at enmity with Him. We need the change. Forgiveness alone could not do it. The Son of God had to live that life of faith and be able to give it to us. And He did and does. Praise the Lord!

Do you see why we emphasize what God emphasized in His word? Why Jesus is called the SON of God? It is His faith as a Son that has given Him the exalted position He holds. Philippians. He is at the right hand of God, sharing His throne, receiving the adoration of men and angels. He is our Lord and God because He made the Father His Lord and God. If we let Him live His life of faith in us we also will sit with him on his throne even as He sits on His father's throne. Not that we will be Him. But we will be sons and daughters like Him. One with Him and with His Father. One in thought, character and purpose. The universe will be one and forever secure because the issues have been dealt with. Praise the Lord!

There is more to His life and death, such as the conflict with Satan, and the revelation of the Fathers glory, but so much for now.

But the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace.

Debbie, thank you that beautiful explanation. But it left me with a question: what did Jesus do for my salvation that I cannot do for myself?

Hi Debbie. It's good to hear from you. I'm so glad you joined us. I don't mean to flatter, but you have a talent for writing that I didn't know about.

One of the main ideas that I am hearing expressed here in different ways is that God loved us and it was not necessary for Christ to die in order for God to love us. This is true enough, but it was because the Father, the Son and the Spirit loved us that together they devised a way of lifting us from our moral ruin. It was not enough to love us only. We had to be restored. The love of the Deity for humanity was truly the prime mover. But it moved according to the plans they concluded amoung themselves for our restoration.

The Blood of Christ is spirit and life, but it also cleanses. It is not enough to recieve the water of life from the side of Jesus, we must also be cleaned and rejuvinated by the blood. John stresses that, besides the Spirit, the other witnesses are not just the water only, - that is enlightenment - but are the water and the blood - enlightnement and life. The life is in the blood, because it is the blood that cleanses from sin. The washing of water is by the Word which enligbtens us. The washing of blood is by Word which cleanses us. What do you think?