Oh boy, am I confused - I thought that Christ's sacrifice was the only way to God...am I naive??/

Hi Mike,

I would like to give a few scriptures in answer to your question

Romans ch.7
24 O wretched man that I am ! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. …
Romans ch.8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do (what I could not do), in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Hebrews ch.2
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Mathew ch.12
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Ephesians ch.2
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of his grace;

Romans ch.3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through the faith by his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

And yes Mark, what you said in your last post in reference to the love of God and man's need is indeed correct, and it is what I stated in my first post in different words.

The entire significant difference is in man's understanding of the character of God. God's Love & Forgiveness. God loved and was able and willing to forgive at any time. We were not able to receive the forgiveness and his love, due to the bondage of fear of death (our legal-istic righteousness).

Yes indeed we needed to be saved, not from God's righteousness, but from our righteousness (Sin).

The idea of paying the penalty of God's Law establishes our righteousnes, imposes it upon God. Whereas the truth of his glory(righteousness) breaks the power of the enemy,which has kept us in bondage of fear of death. Christ came to bring us this glory.

John ch.17
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Exodus ch.34
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Shalom

There is no need to be confused.

Christ shed His blood so that you can be forgiven, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission, or forgiveness, of sin.

Who knows where that is in the Bible?

Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 9
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

John, thank you for those clear answers from the word of God.

Genesis 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Well, they didn't die the day they ate the forbidden fruit. Why not? Is God a liar? Or did someone else die in their place?

Dear Brother Mike: I'll take your question at face value and answer like this:

There is no part of salvation we can do for ourselves except to give Him our sin and self-polluted hearts and let Him give us a new one! The trouble man often has is that he has no problem seeing what sin is; that he knows is wrong. But what gives sin its power and authority in our lives is self and self is tied up so much with our righteousness and self-value that only the power of God can break through and conquer it.

For example I was once talking with a sister who was sharing with me something that she struggled with the most. It gave her more trouble than anything else, caused her more distress and caused her to be most un-Christlike. It was - a clean house! Why did it give her so much trouble? Why couldn't she give it up? Because it was good. It was not a sin. It was something she valued. It represented all her value as a woman and wife and housekeeper. Yet it made her sin and she could not see how to give it up. Many Christians have similar struggles and yet they BELIEVE THAT CHRIST DIED FOR THEM. In order to live with themselves as Christians they have to convince themselves that they are saved, so they just say that they are sinners and Christ knows their hearts. They somehow feel that someday they will overcome these things but this is not what saves them anyway, it's BELIEVING THAT CHRIST DIED FOR THEM.

But in their lives there is no joy, no testimony, no spiritual life. Their Christian lives become a round of just doing what they have always believed is God's will. What they know is right. But if they were honest they would admit that something is missing. Like the rich young ruler they would say: "All these things have I done from my youth, what lack I yet?" But when the Saviour says, "Sell all thou hast and follow me," they cannot. Why? Because what they have is their righteousness. All their Sabbath-keeping and tithe paying and vegetarianism and all the other good things that go with it. All that E.G.White says children and home and marriage should be, all their ideals. But Christ says, "I want them all". Lay them down at my feet and don't you pick one of them up. I will give you my righteousness in my way in my time and you will know that it is I who does it all. When I give it to you, you will not have to fight for it or defend it. I will do it.

Do you know what happens when we experience this? The ropes are cut and life with Christ becomes a glorious adventure of Faith! Everyday is an experience of watching Him do for me what I KNOW I could never do or be. Do you know what this experience does to marriage! To any trial or difficulty? It all becomes the glorious wearing of that beautiful robe of His righteousness! But it costs something. We can no longer fit into other people's moulds of what they think we should be or do. A precious relationship with God through His Son is born and your loyalty is to Him alone. You can never go back. Heaven's windows and doors are opened to you and you can't get enough. His word becomes as if you never read it before. It becomes the voice of God to your soul. And it's food. Hymns you have sung all your life take on new meaning and you wonder how you never heard it before.

May God grant to every reader of these words this glorious experience!

And I know exactly what someone is going to say: "Does that mean you're perfect and you never sin?"

It means, you become a son or daughter of God. Yes, He disciplines His children and He prunes His vines and you will experience it as never before. But it's because you're His child that He does it. And you will wonder why these things never bothered you before. But you will have His joy, peace and approval knowing that you are His and that there is nothing standing between you and Him.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What is the 'death' that Paul teaches that is the wages of sin?

Is this death an eternal separation from God? Is this new or old? or is it one truth that stays the same?

Jesus is the bridge across the gulf that separates us from the Father (at least I have always believe this). If Jesus is not this, how do we regain the perfection, (Be ye perfect just as your Father is perfect)? How do we face the eternal death for our/human actions without this bridge?

If you do not take Jesus as the bridge, then we need a clear, concise definition of just who, what, Jesus was or is?

Which view do I fall in?

Remembering to grow... always in Christ.

Dedreic

Debbie, I totally agree with your description of life in Christ. And it is unfortunate that some people object by asking - "So, you never sin?" I believe conversion is a process and product. During the process of conversion the Holy Spirit influences us to lay aside our defects of character. Once this process is completed we experience the miracle of rebirth, we are born again a new man in Christ. We are dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. We are free from moral sin, and free to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

We are also finally free to sin and free not to sin. We are no longer the slaves of sin. Romans 6 makes all this very clear. We do not and cannot sin so long as we are connected to Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and the mind of the new man we will not choose to sin. 1 John 3 makes this very clear. In order to sin we must first resurrect the mind of the old man and then we can only sin. To restore the relationship our sin severed we must experience the gift of repentance. 1 John 2:1,2.

Debbie, here's where I'm not sure what you're saying about sin, death and Jesus. The wages of sin is death. The Bible makes that very clear. But how come I'm able to sin without dying? The first death cannot be the wages of sin because that's what the second death is all about. Can you please explain why we are able to sin without dying the second death?

When we sin, we do die, we die spiritually. Separation from the Spirit of life is death. "In the day that thow eatest thereof, ye shall surley die", Spiritual death is exactly what happened. The execution of second death is not until the end of the thousand years, but it remains a spiritual death unless one [reconects with the sourse of eternal life. Adam and Eve hid themselves and were afraid of God...never again were they to speak to Him Face to face...They died a spiritual death then and there and would not have ever had a chance to be saved, unless they repented and were converted just as the sinners today. "As soon as there was sin there was a Saviour"...A new birth was needed for this sinful pair, or they would have been eternally separated from God and destined for the fires of Hell. The same with us ...when we sin knowingly, we separate oursilves from The Saviour, and the connection is broken, not because of God , but because we choose to sever the relationship by sin. We live until our natural death, but without a new birth in Christ....We are spiritually dead and eternally lost.

If Jesus Christ was not willing to take our guilt, Die our Second/eternal death as our substitute.....there would have been no plan of Salvation, all would have been lost and Satan would be the Victor.

Let us rejoice, for we know who is the winner of this great controversy, Jesus Christ our Example/substitute/Saviour.

Thank you God for your unspeakable Gift.

[ September 06, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

Thank you Mike for your brief and meaningful statements on Christian life. It is more than we heard from pastors for over four decades. God bless you.

Good questions deserve good answers. We'll be posting soon.

Thank you also Charlene about the spiritual death answer. This is also what I said in my first post

quote:

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The instruction: of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat; for in the day of your eating from it you shall surely die did not mean that God would have to kill him to satisfy his righteousness. But it meant that Adam would pass from life to death. That he would pass from faith (living by God's word) to the domain of 'evil knowledge', which separates man from God and establishes self as the source and produces a 'legal-istic righteousness' (Sin) that uses the instruction of God, which was unto life, to produce death . For sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived me and by it slew me … Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (Rom. 7:11-13) Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us … (Gal.3:13) Satan is the author of sin, self-righteousness. Sin originated in heaven, and it originated there because there was one who turned from faith in God to himself. Satan broke the relationship of faith in God and became his own source. He espoused in himself the legal-istic righteousness which judges on the outward (actions) and not the inward (spirit). To justify himself he has to oppose God. When man listened to him he became partaker of that same righteousness.

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But what does man know about the 'second death'?

Where in the scriptures does it say that the Saviour died the 'second death'?

Shalom

[ September 07, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]