Daryl and Charlene, please note what the quote says and doesn't say: "Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law."

Drinking the cup of trembling was indeed painful and caused superhuman suffering. But please notice that the quote does not say that Jesus died the second death. If Jesus had died the second death there would have been no resurrection on Sunday morning.

Also, please explain why the Scapegoat dies the second death and not the Lord's goat.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mike, It seems clear form these texts what the outcome was/will be...Deity does not die, Jesus being fully God and fully man with sinful nature humanity......His sinful human nature and the sins of all humanity [wages] experienced the second death according to the scriptures and the quote by SOP. His resurrection is our assurance that when our sinful nature is crucified, and we drink the cup that He asks us to drink, we will in His strength raise from our grave to eternal life.

What was the wage that had to be paid? Eternal death. Who paid it? Jesus, A willing victim, because of our transgressions

Charlene, I'm sorry, but I don't find in the Bible or the SOP where Jesus died the second death. It clear that He suffered tasting and conquering the second death by drinking the cup of God's wrath, but nowhere does it say that He died the second death.

Please show me a plain statement in the Bible or the SOP where it says Jesus died the second death. It just doesn't exist.

On the cross Jesus was still very much alive when He cried, "It is finished." John 19:30. What He came to accomplish for us in the outer court, while a man on earth, was finished BEFORE He died. He conquered the second death before He died the first death. Death is defeat, not victory. The suffering of the second death is what separates it from the first death. The suffering of the second death is the wages of sin, death itself is relief from the suffering. And Jesus survived this suffering and lived to declare, It is finished. He defeated the second death, not the other way round.

If Jesus had died the second death, then upon His resurrection (which, according to the Bible is not possible) the great controversy would have ended then and there. Nothing further would have been required of Him as our Saviour - no work in the holy place, and no work in the most holy place. For, in the lake of fire, where the second death happens, sin is eliminated.

If Jesus had died the second death, instead of consuming it completely, then death would have been the winner on the cross. How much more was left over if Jesus died before the cup was empty? But if He emptied the cup before He died, then He defeated the second death. And His journey in and out of the tomb of the first death was merely to demonstrate His ownership of the keys of hell and of death, which He used to enter and exit the grave.

To conquer and to defeat the second death on the cross accomplishes more for our salvation than to succomb to it. There can be no question as to whether or not Jesus defeated the second death on the cross since He was alive after He won. Now that He is the lawful owner of our sin and second death, it is His responsibility to eliminate them in the lake of fire at the end of time. This He will do by transferring them upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat. It is the Devil that dies the second, eternal death with our sin, not Jesus.

I realize that people who resist this understanding of the second death are concerned that if Jesus did not die the second death then He cannot be our Saviour. But the furthest thing is the truth. Because Jesus conquered, consumed and defeated the second death on the cross of Calvary is precisely what makes Him our dear, precious Saviour. By draining the entire cup of wrath there was nothing left over for us to drink. He had to be alive in order to drain the cup, and by living through the entire experience He proved to be victorious, not defeated.

Charlene, please answer my question about the Scapegoat, the Lord's goat, and the second death.

[ September 11, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

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Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

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quote:

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Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

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So, without a death there is no remission of sins. Jesus was made a curse for us. So, what penalty did Jesus suffer for us then? We all pay the penalty of the first death, Christian or no. So, if Jesus died the first death, what meaning does it have. It appears to have no efficaciousness at all. His death is not saving us from the first death. We are all paying that penalty. The only real penalty that we have left is the second death. That is the only penalty--debt--we owe that we cannot pay.

Since Jesus is our Kinsman-Redeemer, who paid the debt we cannot pay, how did He pay it? How did His dying the first death pay--fulfill--our debt to the second death? How could his not dying the death that will come to all of us who do not accept His sacrifice of Himself pay the debt?

Is not the second death the real curse of the law? If it wasn't then we are all paying the debt ourselves, for we are all dying.

Your argument is not making sense to me.

Got back from a trip and just looked at the thread. On whether Christ technically died the second death:

quote:

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In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. (GC 544)

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So the truth of the matter is that if Christ had not died, if there had been no plan of salvation, then there would be no second death.

I don't think it's a vital point to quibble over, but I think it technically incorrect to say that Jesus died the second death. There are definitely similarites between the two, like the horrible anguish the lost will feel.

Mark, I'm glad to hear your brother was vexed. As far as the old view goes,

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Important truths concerning the atonement were taught the people by this yearly service. In the sin offerings presented during the year, a substituted had been accepted in the sinner's stead; but the blood of the victim had not made full atonement for the sin. It had only provided a means by which the sin was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood, the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed the guilt of his transgression, and expressed his faith in Him who was to take away the sin of the world; but he was not entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering for the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, above the tables of the law. Thus the claims of the law, which demanded the life of the sinner, were satisfied. Then in his character of mediator the priest took the sins upon himself, and, leaving the sanctuary, he bore with him the burden of Israel's guilt. At the door of the tabernacle he laid his hands upon the head of the scapegoat and confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." And as the goat bearing these sins was sent away, they were, with him, regarded as forever separated from the people. Such was the service performed "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things." Hebrews 8:5. (PP 355, 356)

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It is quite apparent that the law of god demands the death of the sinner, but Christ's death, Christ's blood, meets those claims. It is also apparent that sin is something that can be transferred from sinner to Substitute to the sanctuary through the blood.

Gary, thank you for your response. There is no difference between the first and second death, so far as being dead is concerned. The difference has to do with drinking the cup of wrath BEFORE dying. The shame, guilt and suffering that precedes death is the second death experience.

By drinking this cup on our behalf, Jesus earned the right to own our sin and second death. Draining the cup as our Substitute satisfies the demands of the law. He conquered death by 1) drinking the cup of the second death and, 2) by entering and exiting the portals of the first death. He is twice a winner.

As lawful owner of sin and death, it is His responsibility to eliminate them in the lake of fire at the end of time. This He will do by transferring our sin and second death upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat, who will die the eternal death with our sin in the lake of fire.

If we say Jesus died the second death, then we are also saying He is the scapegoat. This would be a terrible mistake.

I hope that makes more sense.

[ September 11, 2002, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Sept. 12, 1891. God's Love for Us. "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" Jesus took the sinner's place. He became "sin for us, who knew no sin." The God of justice did not spare His Son. In the secret place of the Most High a voice was heard: "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts." The whole debt for the transgressor of God's law was demanded from our Mediator. A full atonement was required. How appropriate are the words of Isaiah, "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief." His soul was made "an offering for sin." "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities."

Jesus suffered the extreme penalty of the law for our transgressions, and justice was fully satisfied. The law is not abrogated; it has lost not one jot of its force. Instead, it stands forth in holy dignity, Christ's death on the cross testifying to its immutability. Its demands have been met, its authority maintained. God spared not His only begotten Son. To show the depth of His love for man, He delivered Him up for us all. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Behold Him dying on the cross. Behold Him who was equal with God, mocked and derided by the mob. Behold Him in Gethsemane, bowed under the burden of the sins of the whole world.

Was the penalty remitted because He was the Son of God? Were the vials of wrath withheld from Him who was made sin for us? Without abatement the penalty fell upon our divine-human Substitute.

Hear His cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" He was treated as a sinner that we might be treated as righteous, that God might be just and yet the justifier of the sinner.

I ask the impenitent, What greater evidence do you want that God is a God of justice? If the sword of justice woke in its might against the Fellow of the Almighty, and was not sheathed until bathed in the blood of God's only begotten Son, what will be the punishment of those who refuse to accept the atoning sacrifice? When the Son of God interposed in man's behalf, and humbled Himself on Calvary, angels drew back in amazement. Can those for whom this great sacrifice was made escape the wrath of God if they are indifferent to this great salvation? Those who choose to continue in sin will be without a shadow of excuse. Calvary is the only argument that will be used against them.

The love existing between the Father and His Son cannot be portrayed. It is measureless. In Christ God saw the beauty and perfection of excellence that dwells in Himself. Wonder, O heavens, and be astonished. O earth, for God spared not His own Son, but gave Him up to be made sin for us, that those who believe may be made the righteousness of God in Him. "God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Language is too feeble for us to attempt to portray the love of God. We believe it, we rejoice in it, but we cannot comprehend it.
Giving Christ, God has given everything. Nothing greater, nothing more costly, could He bestow. In giving His Son, He gave all heaven, not because of any goodness or righteousness that we possess, but because He loved us. {18MR 335-77}
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Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753}

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If Jesus didn't die the second death, how is it he couldn't see beyone the portals of the tomb? He paid the whole debt demanded by the law and that debt is the second death, eternal separation from God.

quote:

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But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

The sinner is not immortal; for God has said, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4). This means all that it expresses. It reaches farther than the death which is common to all; it means the second death 1SM 297

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Linda wrote:

"If Jesus didn't die the second death, how is it he couldn't see beyone the portals of the tomb? He paid the whole debt demanded by the law and that debt is the second death, eternal separation from God."

At that particular moment He couldn't see beyond the portals of tomb, but just before He cried, It is finished, the sense of His Father's disfavor was withdrawn, He had won the battle, He was victorious before He died. He accomplished what He set out to do before He died. He knew His resurrection was forthcoming.

The Desire of Ages, page 756, paragraph 3
Amid the awful darkness, apparently forsaken of God, Christ had drained the last dregs in the cup of human woe. In those dreadful hours He had relied upon the evidence of His Father's acceptance heretofore given Him. He was acquainted with the character of His Father; He understood His justice, His mercy, and His great love. By faith He rested in Him whom it had ever been His joy to obey. And as in submission He committed Himself to God, the sense of the loss of His Father's favor was withdrawn. By faith, Christ was victor.

The Desire of Ages, page 758, paragraph 1
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost.

[ September 12, 2002, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, you're making too fine a distinction. There is no substantial difference between dying the second death and having died the second death. If I understand you right, you're saying Christ did the former not the latter. In the sanctuary service, both goats died on the Day of Atonement.

John, it seems like no one is willing to create a cheat sheet for the alternate view. How about you. I did a short list in the first post but one of the members wants something more complete.

Greetings Mark, Mike and friends.

Sorry I do not mean to delay. It is taking a little longer to prepare, but is coming. With all the other work, time has been tight.

We have been following the thread. The discussion on the second death is interesting. I was going to ask the question, What is the second death? The last two posts seem to shed some info.
'eternal separation from god' is one thought.
'suffering the wrath' is another. or the two are the same? Perhaps a definiton would be helpful.

What is the meaning of the 'eternal' if it can fit into a few hours?

Shalom