Bob Pickle wrote:

"I don't think it's a vital point to quibble over, but I think it technically incorrect to say that Jesus died the second death."

I agree that the distinction is minute and technical, but I also believe that since the Bible makes the distinction it is an important one.

Mark, technically the scapegoat did not die the second death with the sins of the saved on the day of atonement. The second death occurs at the end of the millennium, not in the outer court, at the beginning of the sanctuary service, when Jesus died on the altar of burnt offerings.

Lev 16:10
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The Great Controversy, page 658, paragraph 1
"In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness."

The experience associated with the second death, which for Satan will be his first death, does not begin until the unsaved are cast alive in the lake of fire. Jesus died at the begining of the sanctuary service, not at the end with the scapegoat.

Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Drinking the cup of God's unmingled wrath is the experience of the second death. The actual death that follows this experience is physically no different than the first death, except that there will be no resurrection afterwards.

Rev 14:9,10
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

In order for Jesus to be our Sacrifice and Saviour it was necessary for Him to completely drain the cup before laying down His life. Death did not defeat Jesus on the Cross. Jesus defeated death by first draining the dregs of the cup, and then He willingly laid down His life and took it up again three days later. Nothing killed Him. He was not murdered. Nothing took His life from Him. Sin did not kill Him. He won the battle first, while He was still alive, and then He Himself laid down His life.

John 10:17,18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus made atonement for mankind while He was still alive. "Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won." DA 758.

Does this mean He did not die for our sins? How can God die? His humanity died, not His divinity!!! So, did He really die? I believe He did, but in a way we cannot perfectly comprehend.

Selected Messages Book 1, page 301, paragraph 1
"I am the resurrection, and the life" (John 11:25). He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again" (John 10:17), came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died; divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will.

[ September 12, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Here are a few of the clearer quotes from the SOP. When I started the thread, I intended to stick to scripture only, but I want to quote just a few SOP paragraphs. Those of you who have come to question her gift and/or have come to believe it's Biblical to select parts that are inspired and discard parts that aren't (and I believe that not everything she wrote is directly inspired too, but in a different way) I hope you'll reconsider the binding claims of her gift. As Paul writes, "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" I Cor. 14:32.

quote:

---

The power that inflicted retributive justice upon man's substitute and surety, was the power that sustained and upheld the suffering One under the tremendous weight of wrath that would have fallen upon a sinful world. Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law.--Manuscript 35, 1895. {7ABC 463.3}

The cross must occupy the central place because it is the means of man's atonement and because of the influence it exerts on every part of the divine government.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 236. {7ABC 464.1}

The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters.--Letter 406, 1906. {7ABC 464.2}

---

[ September 13, 2002, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 163, paragraph 3
Christ took upon Himself the nature of humanity, to make it possible for Him to suffer and to die as a propitiation for the sins of the fallen race.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 925, paragraph 6
He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die.

Selected Messages Book 1, page 301, paragraph 1
Humanity died; divinity did not die.

Did Jesus really, truly die since divinity did not die?

Sorry for the confusion Mike. When I said I would post "a few of the clearer quotes" I was referring to Sister White's statements on the subsitutionary death of Christ, not on whether He died the second death.

Regarding the use of Sister White here, there has been a lot of quoting, but we've seen a lot of scripture cited as well - on both sides.

One way that this issue would be settled quickly though is by referring to the writings of Sister White because her position cannot be misunderstood. Above I asked the alternate view side to reconsider her inspiration based on the evidence.

What evidence? All of the scriptural tests of a prophet.

Because of our fallen natures we have a great capacity to set up our own opinions in the place of Biblical truth. Even while we do this, we are all inclined to think that we simply have a correct interpretation of scripture. But if the Spirit of God has spoken through one prophet and the evidence of that is rejected, the door is now open to sit in judgement on the messages of all prophets. It is inevitable that the same reasoning will be applied to their messages that don't harmonize with our understanding. Our only safeguard is to closely examine ourselves to see whether we are prepared to submit our firmly held opinions to the counsel of all prophetic messages.

[ September 14, 2002, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

I learned recently that Dr. Bacchiocchi has begun to espouse the view that prophecy from New Testament times and forward is a "mixed bag!" (His words.) This is probably the most recent notable example of an individual within the church who began with the idea that he could be selective with Ellen White. Now this fine scholar is mired in the quicksand of selective inspiration at the Biblical level.

How tragic that people who ought to be giving the clearest and most ringing endorsements of the Word of God as the only authoritative rule of faith and practice, because they are unwilling to be subject to the spirit of the prophets, are now denying the authority of the Word and undermining its influence. At this point in time Dr. Bacchiocchi is saying that the lesser prophets of the New Testament spoke truth and error but he continues to make the apostles the standard. But how long will this view hold up. How is the Spirit of God mixed with the spirit of error in some people and not in others?

But when a spirit of error is accepted, men will accept the most untenable ideas, such as the idea that God will mingle false messages with true. We are witnessing a great phenomena, possibly the greatest phenomena: the spirit of error that places the mark of a false prophet - one who mingles truth and error - as a characteristic of a true prophet. Surprising and amazing but we should have known this. How else can Satan make the Spirit of Prophecy of no effect? The most effective means is to place on all of the prophets, including Sister White, the title of prophet, but to strip her and her associates of all genuine authority.

[ September 14, 2002, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Let us not get too far astray from this topic.

Sabbath blessings to you all

Several questions have been put forth about sin, death, second death, wages of sin, remission, shedding of blood, and the place that the death of Jesus has in this. In this post we will address some of these.

Wages of sin is death
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It says the wages of sin, not wages for sin. Please, the prepositions are important. (It makes big difference whether one is being kept in sin or kept from sin . All that changed was the preposition.) It is sin that pays the wages, not God. In contrast to that God offers us a Gift of eternal life. The whole chapter six of Romans deals with the issue of two masters and the rewards they give. This should be very clear. We should not charge God with the wages of sin. He is the giver of the Gift which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is this death?
We see here that primarily this death is spiritual death. As has been said in previous posts.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

To realize the meaning of death, we need to see it in the light of eternal life. For death is an intruder in the kingdom of God, it did not exist. It was brought in by Sin. Satan holds the power of death. (Hebrews 2:14 … that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;). Death is not a product of God's righteousness. It is a process and product of Satan's Righteousness. In the wisdom of God, Christ, by subjecting himself to the power of Satan overthrew it. We see that in Satan's righteousness there is no faith, no trust, for the law is not of faith. Everything is by the letter of the law, for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. In this righteousness there is no room for forgiveness, mercy, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, for these are not of the law. When Satan talks of any of these, everything becomes measured and paid.

To understand this meaningfully, we need to understand where Satan derives his power.
Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Please note very carefully that Satan derives his power of death from the law of God.

How did he obtain it?

By deceiving!

What is the deception?

The deception is that he takes God's word, which is unto life, and uses it unlawfully for the purpose of demanding and causing death. The unlawful use of the law is to find fault, to accuse, to condemn, to self justify. This he does in the name of justice (his idea of justice), and in the name of the law.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting:
Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Satan, using the law established his own righteousness, a legal-istic righteousness that can only produce death. As a parasite he derives his power from the law, for the strength of sin is the law. Further he imposed it in the minds of man and his sympathizers that this is of God. In this manner he set himself (his principles) as God. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Thus he keeps in bondage all his subjects. (preventing them through fear of death from coming to the living God)
Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Under the Law.
It may be interesting to note how many indeed consider that ultimate justice means ultimate exaction. We need to realize what is meant in the scripture when it speaks about those who are, under the law, by the law, of the law, under sin. In all these is found a righteousness that is not from God, a righteousness which is their own, whose author is Satan. Sin holds dominion upon all them that are of this righteousness. Sin declares that there can be no forgiveness. Satan urges, by the law that the sinner cannot be pardoned. So all who are under the law are possessors of a legal-istic righteousness, the curse of the law, which is not of God, but of Satan. Death is the power of that righteousness. It thrives on penalties.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty(one who lost his suit) before God.

Every man born in this world is affected by this righteousness to a greater or lesser degree. What does all this mean? It means that when men read Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission; they understand it to be God's righteousness, payment of penalty. They cannot understand that Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Hebrews 9:8 They cannot comprehend that God is not satisfied by anything which is by the law. That without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6 And the law is not of faith: Galatians 3:12. And, the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalms 51:17

Until the day dawn and the daystar arise in your hearts:
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Realization of God's righteousness, justice, shall not happen until the veil is removed from the eyes. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil (the righteousness which is by the law) is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord (faith), the veil (the righteousness which is by the law) shall be taken away.. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (2 Corinthians 3:15,16 Galatians 3:23 Galatians 4:4,5)

But now the righteousness of God without (apart from) the law is manifested,
What does it mean that God's righteousness is apart from the law? It means that God's righteousness is not by the law, of the law, under the law. It is not subject to law. What is it based on? Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. What is this faith? It is the faith, which receives the spirit of our heavenly Father. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? What kind of hearing is that? It is the hearing that receives the mind of God, his understanding, his judgment, his justice. What is the fruit of it? But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

For all have sinned (partaken of the legal-istic righteousness that kills, under the law) and come short of the glory of God. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. What is the Glory of God? And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty… against such there is no law. God's righteousness is not one thing and his love another thing. God is Love, his love is righteousness, his righteousness is love. His mercy, grace, goodwill, justice is his righteousness; his righteousness is mercy, grace, goodwill, justice. What is his justice? Psalms 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Justice is to succor the afflicted and needy. The justice of God is not to exact, but to defend.
God is light and in him is no darkness at all. Light is life. Death is work of darkness and not light

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons
It was necessary to break the veil of sin (legal-istic righteousness). It was necessary to shed the light of the glory of God in this dark place of sin and death; to break the bonds of sin. To reveal that God's righteousness is not, of, under, by the law; but that it is by faith, the faith of Jesus. What faith? The Faith that maketh a son.

Shalom

This is PART 1 - PART 2 to follow

[ September 16, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Mark, surely God has worked through EGW. Amen!!

The wages of sin is death. But why? Is it because sin kills us? Or is it because God kills us? In the Bible it says we die because God prevents us from eating the fruit of the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Patriarchs and Prophets, page 60, paragraph 3
"In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner."

We die, therefore, because we cannot eat the fruit of the tree of life. Sin does not kill us, rather, not being able to eat the fruit does. And the reason we cannot eat the fruit is because God does not want us to be immortal sinners. So, in essence God kills us. Consequently, God is in control - not sin or death.

The wages of sin is death. Why? Because God will not allow sinners to eat the fruit of the tree of life. Jesus would have eventually died of old age if He hadn't died on the cross. Would dying of old age have qualified Jesus to be our Substitute?

1. Since Jesus "did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do" (DA 758) - what purpose did His death serve?

2. "The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life." DA 530. Since "divinity did not die" (1 SM 301) - what purpose did His death serve?

Mike you ask what purpose did the death of Christ serve. John's point is that it was not a substitution - it was an example of faith.

And it was an example of faith. We agree on that. What kind of faith? A faith that was obedient to the will of the Father to the point of death. Christ proved this at the beginning of his ministry in the wilderness when he fell dying to the earth and angels ministered to Him. He proved it again at the end. So we have a double witness in the life of Christ of his fidelity as required in the Law.

When Christ was in the garden, asking the Father to remove the cup from Him, his faith was put to the test. It was such an extreme test that he sweat blood, not just a little. Great drops of blood were forced to the surface of his skin. But the process of dying didn't end there. His physical endurance was extended again just as it had been in the wilderness so that his suffering would be prolonged and completed. The Father commissioned Gabriel the replacement of Satan, to strengthen His Son.

On the cross, the drama continued. As before, in the garden, when Christ withdrew a stone's throw from even his closest disciples to prevent them from closely viewing his supreme agony, the Father veiled the final most excruciating spiritual agonies from view. An impenetrable cloud has kept all of us from understanding the full meaning of the sufferings of Christ.

The entire life of Christ was a sacrifice - a dying process. When he rested in the tomb, the process was complete. But it was the act of dying that mattered. He lived to die. His sacrifice is not his death, it is the dying process. Once the sacrifice was complete, he said “it is finished”. Then he laid his life down. This act was a pure voluntary choice. But it was the preceding process that has all the merit.

By faith we can begin to comprehend the justice and mercy of God in providing a ransom for our souls. It is a mistake to give Satan credit for any kind of righteousness. Righteousness means right doing, something that became foreign to Satan before the creation of man. Satan is a liar and the father of them, a murderer with no righteous motives. He is Leviathan, gilded by pride and hatred, devoid of love and sympathy, a destroyer.

In God’s eyes there is none righteous among mortals. And according to Him there is one way only to get righteousness. Genuine faith will ask for a righteousness outside of ourselves to be appropriated to our own account. We have no righteousness within ourselves, legalistic or otherwise. What righteousness we have is a counterfeit called self-righteousness. When the Word refers to those who seek to establish their own righteousness it is referring to a counterfeit. That counterfeit is anything that is not the righteousness of Christ.

The deficiency in what John proposes is this: that the righteousness of Christ is not a real commodity that we must have in the place of and as a substitute for our own unrighteousness. In this system Christ is an ideal that we copy, but there can be no such thing as a real exchange of spiritual clothing. The righteousness of Christ is not something that God actually grants us. Why? Because if Christ is not our substitute, His righteousness cannot be substituted for our self-righteousness in any real sense and take the place of our total lack. Unless faith grasps the fact that Christ has a wardrobe full of wedding garments, how can anyone put them on? They are not real to the person without faith. Those who do this, instead of claiming the blood of Christ as the men of faith have done down through the centuries as our sole hope of salvation, are offering to God the fruit of Cain.

The faith that is commended by God is the faith exercised by Abel. “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.” Hebrews 11:4. As John points out, it was not the sacrifice itself that God desired. It is the faith. Not just faith in an ideal however. Genuine faith appropriates the merits of Christ represented by the sacrifice. This is the faith that Abel had and that must be ours.

[ September 14, 2002, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

John, I reread my last post, and the tone of it might make you think I’m not open to what you wrote. So, I want you to know I’m still spending quite a bit of time combing through your last post to try and understand you better, and see if there is anything in what you’re saying that we can agree on.

You say the righteousness of God is revealed apart from the Law, which means that God’s righteousness is not based on the law. In another place you say that God’s justice is in showing mercy. Doesn’t the Bible combine the concepts of mercy and justice? Mercy and justice are like the positive and negative charges of electricity. You do not have electricity unless there is a difference in charges. If you had only positive, you would not have electricity. If you had only negative, you still do not have a charge. Electricity is defined as the movement of electrons, so by definition, electricity only exists where there is positive and negative. In the same way mercy and justice define each other. Justice is the negative and mercy the positive. Together they are the righteousness, the electricity, the power of God. We call this Grace.

Justice says what ought to be done and not done. It defines righteousness in terms of absolute values which are rooted in the character of the Deity. The Law defines not only the character of the Father, it defines the character of the Son and the Spirit. The Law is their character. Their character is the Law. This is where we seem to be parting ways. You attribute a new kind of righteousness to God ‘not based on the law’. In the biblical model though, the Law is at the heart of the sanctuary. If the law was the evil that you are saying it is, why is it the focal point of the sanctuary? Why were the stone tables placed in the Ark and the blood sprinkled just above them on the mercy seat.

This picture shows that the Law is foundational. The Ark represents God’s government, his throne. It is based squarely on His character or Law. But the Law is encased in mercy. So mercy triumphs over justice, but it is only together that they define righteousness.

[ September 14, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]