Mark, thank you for sharing those good words. Jesus is awesome, and altogether lovely. Only His righteousness and death saves us from mortal ruin and eternal loss. Amen!

I believe Jesus' death on the cross has something to do with my salvation, I'm just not exactly sure how and why. I'm not sure why His perfect life and death makes it possible for God to forgive me and to save me in His eternal kingdom. It doesn't make sense to me. But I accept it by faith.

God's goal is NOT to kill us in the lake of fire, but to save us from a life of sin now, so that we are safe to save eternally. Somehow the life and death of Jesus makes it all possible. But why and how? Was it His perfect life that makes us safe to save? or was it His perfect death? or both?

Because of what Jesus did, we are motivated to hate sin, to love Him, to crucify our sinful old man defects of character, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Had Jesus not given His life and death for our us, salvation would not have been desirable, we would not have longed for fellowship with Him.

Setting us free from sin, so that we no longer sin is, however, and for some reason, not enough. Death for past sins is also necessary, although I'm not exactly sure why. My human mind reasons that ceasing from sin should be good enough. But the Bible makes it clear that the wages of sin is death, even if we eventually cease sinning.

Perhaps death is the only way to completely rid the universe of sin - if all the sinners were dead, sin would cease to exist. God will blot out the memory and record of our specific sins, but they will still exist in Christ, and unless they perish with someone in the lake of fire, sin will continue to exist.

That's where Satan comes in - Jesus will transfer the sins of the saved upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat, and he will die with them (not for them) in the lake of fire. Once Satan, and the host of the unsaved, are dead and reduced to ashes, sin will cease to exist. It is the scapegoat who dies the second death in my place.

Since Satan perishes with sin in the lake of fire, thus eliminating sin from the universe, I'm not totally sure what the death of Jesus accomplished for us. He accomplished what He came to do BEFORE He died on the cross. He earned the right to own our sin and death when He drained the dregs of the cup. Which, to me, means He earned the right to transfer our sin and death to Satan at the end of time.

Do you see what I mean? There's more to this than Jesus merely providing a substitute for my sin and death because God requires death for sin.

[ September 14, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, you're asking me about what I said above?

quote:

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...it was the act of dying that mattered. He lived to die. His sacrifice is not his death, it is the dying process. Once the sacrifice was complete, he said “it is finished”. Then he laid his life down. This act was a pure voluntary choice. But it was the preceding process that has all the merit.

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I say the dying process had all the merit, not the death itself, which might be an overstatement, but I'll explain a bit.

Christ died of a broken heart. It was the breaking process that saves us. When he bowed his head and yeilded up his spirit to the Father, it seems that this was the conclusion, the period. Heaven seems to have understood this because unlike the disciples who viewed the death of Jesus as a complete disaster, heaven viewed it as a complete triumph. He went to the grave a conquorer.

So is their merit in lying in the tomb. I don't think so. There is merit though in submission to the father's will, in faith that trusts even when all earthly and divine consolations are cut off. And you're right I think that there is merit in yeilding up His life. But isn't the merit to be found in all of his conscious living decisions? Including the decision to yield up his life?

Mark, I agree with you that everything Jesus accomplished before He laid down His own life is what saves us - His complete and total submission to do the will of His Father, which involved drinking the cup of wrath and laying down His own life.

I think it is very important that we understand Jesus was not killed or that He died of natural causes. He makes it clear that He laid down His own life. Nothing killed Jesus on the cross - not sin, not death, not Satan, not man, not anything. He laid down His own life, but not before He earned the right to save us, which He did before He laid down His own life.

Since He purchased our salvation before He laid down His own life, I'm not exactly sure why He laid down His own life, unless it was to demonstrate that He is the lawful owner of the keys of hell and of death, which He proved by entering and exiting the domain of death. And perhaps He laid down His own life in order to rid Himself of His sinful flesh nature and to resurrect Himself with a sinless flesh nature.

What do you think?

Mike you raised a number of questions in regards to death and the tree of life.

There are two factors to consider. One is that death is primarily spiritual and secondarily (result) physical. The other is that eternal life is primarily spiritual and secondarily (result) physical. We need to understand the true meaning of life.

When man broke faith, he fell under the dominion of death, death immediately began to reign in man. This is the spiritual death that kills by establishing a legal-istic righteousness. We can see this plainly in the fear, accusations, and blaming for purpose of self justification.

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Since death was reigning in Adam, The issue is the reign of Sin and Death. If God allowed Adam to continue to eat of the tree of life then Death would continue to reign eternally, Sin and death would be immortalized. Man would not be able to recognize death or sin. Satan's dominion would be established.

By not allowing man to go back and eat of the tree of life, God prevented the dominion of Satan, sin, and death to reign eternally, and by the same token actually provided a way for man to be saved and restored back from death to eternal life..

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus it was that in reality God interposed to sustain life, by placing it in the realm of time, on a level where the powers of life and death could be manifested, so that we could come to the realization of eternal life and take hold of eternal life.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God indeed is in control, not sin nor death. Had God permitted man to continue eating of the tree of life, sin and death would have ruled the day.

Mark,
You said that it is a mistake to give Satan credit for any kind of righteousness. I believe that it is clear from my post that I do not acknowledge his righteousness as righteousness. But it is important to realize that man in his fallen state (all those under the law) thinks it is so, and more than that, he thinks it is of God. There is the deception. The following scriptures should give the perspective.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

You said, 'If the Law was the evil that you are saying it is' … stop right there. I never said any such thing. The law is just and good. The law has a vital part in being a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Without the Law, death reigned without our awareness. But when the Law came, sin revived and I died. It is the law of sin and death which sin established in us using the Law of God unlawfully that is the evil.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Verily, verily I say unto you, he that hears my word and believes on him that sent me has everlasting life, and …is passed from death unto life. John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickens (gives life); the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you are spirit, and are life.
Is there a reality of life that the scriptures teach, which has not entered in the mind of man? The source of life is the spirit - not the body. It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you are spirit, and are life. John 6:63

You stated that I propose that Christ is an Ideal that we copy. I cannot tell where you obtain that thought. It is rather the substitute doctrine that maintains the separation between the Saviour and man by dealing with sin in a remote judicial setting. My position is summarized in the following scripture.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Sorry Mark your concept of the electrical charges, negative and positive, in respect of Justice and Mercy would not work. That would be a short-circuit.

I am preparing part two, which will deal with how Jesus through death destroyed him that had the power of death, that is the Devil. His current ministry, and eternal life.

Shalom

I should read more carefully. Your many references to legalistic righteousness and a righteousness divorced from the law gave me the impression that you viewed the law negatively. So the law is good, but it is unrelated to His love and justice? You wrote:

quote:

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God's righteousness is not one thing and his love another thing. God is Love, his love is righteousness, his righteousness is love. His mercy, grace, goodwill, justice is his righteousness; his righteousness is mercy, grace, goodwill, justice. What is his justice? Psalms 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Justice is to succor the afflicted and needy. The justice of God is not to exact, but to defend.

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I made another incorrect assumption about what you are saying: That without substitution, you must be teaching that it is impossible to put on the robe of Christ's righteousness. You say no:

quote:

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You stated that I propose that Christ is an Ideal that we copy. I cannot tell where you obtain that thought. It is rather the substitute doctrine that maintains the separation between the Saviour and man by dealing with sin in a remote judicial setting. My position is summarized in the following scripture.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

---

So we can receive the robe or spirit of Christ without Biblical justification? John this is spiritualistic. In the history of Adventism, spiritualistic teachings have appeared many times, and as far as I am aware they were always caused by men who placed their own opinions above inspiration - who taught that they could discern which parts of the Testimonies or scripture should be given more weight than others.

The robe Christ offers is His righteousness. His righteousness is his sinless life. He never disobeyed. He delighted in the Father's will. He magnified the Law and made it honorable. His life of complete obedience to the Divine will, the Law, is substitional for ours.

In order for the power of God to flow, there has to be justice based on law, and mercy based on law. Even a short circuit must have a differnce in charges in order for the power to flow.

[ September 15, 2002, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mike, you wrote:

quote:

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I'm not exactly sure why He laid down His own life, unless it was to demonstrate that He is the lawful owner of the keys of hell and of death, which He proved by entering and exiting the domain of death. And perhaps He laid down His own life in order to rid Himself of His sinful flesh nature and to resurrect Himself with a sinless flesh nature.

---

I think both of these are true, but at the root of it is the covenant that the Father, Son and Spirit made with each other that Christ would taste both the sufferings of death, and death itself in order to spoil its domains. It was part of the plan, and Jesus set the example of obedience and submission here as in everything else.

One more thought on justice and mercy based on law. The most basic concept of justice and social order in constitution based societies is the rule of law. It's no coinsidence that successful modern nations always based their legal systems on the rule of law - they are mimicing the Divine order.

Mark, thank you. What you said about death being a part of God's plan for Jesus makes sense. But I'm still not 100% sure about all the why's and wherefore's. By faith I accept that His death had something to do with my ransome and redemption.

John, I like what you wrote about the spiritual aspect of death, but I am more inclined to believe that death is first physical and then secondarily spiritual. The real thing usually comes first, and then metaphors are derived from that.

Question: Does Satan, the scapegoat, die the second death in place of the saved? Or, did Jesus accomplish that for the saved?

Mark
Galatians
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The law came in to reveal sin and not to establish righteousness. God's righteousness is revealed apart from the law. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus. Rom 3:21,22

Yes Mark you need to read a lot, a lot more closer than you do. It is not edifying to make prejudiced labels. Please specify the thought that concerns you and why. No Mark, in a short-circuit there is no flow of electricity. Electricity would produce immediate destruction of such circuit until the circuit is no more.

I would like to mention a few things in regards to the discussion on the death and dying, suffering of Christ. There have been some meaningful thoughts there. While at first the thought presented was that the death was that which was required to satisfy the demands of 'god's law', to make atonement for sin, a substitute death for man. It seemed to be realised that such is not scriptural or proper. The focus shifted to the suffering and victory over death that was obtained before he laid down his life. This is indeed much more in the light of truth. While it was stated that the difference is minimal, or technical, I would like to present that there is a world of difference in the two.
The first thought establishes death as the supreme ruler and arbiter of righteousness. It establishes death as the supreme god, which even God had to satisfy before he could forgive. So we see that Satan's righteousness is supreme in this first view and death is the master ruler. The second view sees death as an enemy of God that was overcome and Christ was victorious over, and thereby effected salvation. This is scriptural and true. There are some thoughts in the second view, which have not yet been realised.

Questions for thought.
In the Passover experience, what did the blood on the door posts save them from? The destroying angel, or Egypt? Why was the destroying angel there? Why was the whole situation happening? What was the purpose?

Mike, there is no life to the spirit apart from the body. Is there thought in the grave? If death were physical first, then there would be no salvation, no repentance, and no possibility of any spiritual anything.
Sin occurs first. Death enters the mind and spirit and abides there. It is there that the Saviour overcame death and was victorious. The physical death and resurrection are a seal of the victory.
In like manner death must be overcome and eternal life must find its abode in our spirit first before it is safe for God to give us immortality.

Shalom

Mike, you asked, 'Does Satan, the scapegoat, die the second death in place of the saved? Or, did Jesus accomplish that for the saved?'

Neither.
In simple terms, Satan is the accuser of the brethren. All his accusations will be returned to him, the rightful owner. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Thus his own righteousness shall be upon his head. It should not be difficult to see how dreadful that will be.

As far as any of us who are the rightful owners of the sin-righteousness. The Lord says what we must do. Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Where? To Golgotha, that self-righteousness may be crucified with Christ.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 5: 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ never came to satisfy death. He came to overcome it, and He overcame and is able to save them that come to God by Him. Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The second death is an event in time and place at the end of time, and it cannot be pre-evented. It was never the purpose of God that the second death nor any death would need to be satisfied. Rather, that death should be overcome, so that death would have no power over us.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Hallelujah!

Shalom