Greetings David, God be with you.

Yes it has been some time. Thank you for your observations.

Your question is great and I do not know that I will be able to answer it in one post.

I believe the contrasting message in the two verses defines the meaning of the 'gave' and 'sent' well.

John 3:16 tells us what God is doing
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God so loved, that he gave (this would be meaningless if the giving was so he could satisfy himself, his own requirements, demands), For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. Why? Because we needed him. For what purpose? that whosoever believeth in him. This is a personal faith in a person. The just shall live by faith. It is faith that man needs. Not as Israel of old who said Let not God speak to us lest we die - that was a faith, belief about God, that kept them from life. It kept them offering sacrifices to God. They would not trust God personally. We need the faith of the Son, so that we could become sons. The word 'in' in that whosoever believeth in him really means 'into' - a point reached or entered - as the saviour said abide in me and I in you. So that we may not perish, but have everlasting life. Everlasting life - the servant abideth not in the house forever, but the son abideth ever. Everlasting life can only be had as sons. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. What faith? The faith of a son. Where there is personal faith there is no distrust. There is reconciliation and peace. Eternal life. God so loved that he gave.

…and on earth peace, good will toward men.

John 3:17 tells us what God is not doing
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Man was full of guilt and condemnation. Sin does that. God did not send (dispatch) his son for the purpose of condemning us. There was enough of that in this world. The Son came to set free those who are in bondage. Bondage to what? God's penalty for sin? No. But rather from the darkness and slavery of sin. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. That the world through him might be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God

Shalom

John, I believe Jesus is the lawful owner of sin and the second death for all mankind. I believe He earned the right to own our sin and second death when He consumed the cup of God's wrath beginning in Gethsemane and ending on Golgotha.

Because Jesus owns all sin and death, which He accomplished before He laid down His own life, we are able to sin without immediately incurring the consequences of sin, which is eternal death. Our Lord has quarantined sin and death within the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.

He will one day transfer the sin and death of the saved upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat. The devil will die with the sins of the saved in the lake of fire, the second death. This is the final process of the atonement for mankind.

Jesus is our substitute in the sense that He earned the right to own our sin and death, and to transfer it upon the head of Satan. Sin and death did not defeat Jesus on the cross, rather He defeated them, and became our substitute, which gives Him the legal right to eliminate them as He sees fit.

The love He demonstrated for us, on behalf of the Godhead, by willingly living and dying for us can set us free, if we are willing to comply with the conditions of salvation - namely, accept Jesus as our personal Saviour.

That's what makes sense to me. What about you?

[ September 25, 2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Thanks for your reply brother John

Let me quote from your post first:

"I believe the contrasting message in the two verses defines the meaning of the 'gave' and 'sent' well."

This is a good approach for Bible study...looking into the text itself for our answers. I appreciate seeing that.

It looks like you have some other remarks planned that you have not yet posted because of time limitations...I will be looking forward to reading what you have to say.

I have a question about the context of your use of Luke 2;14 above. ("peace on earth, good will to men..."). The most correct rendering of this text seems to suggest "peace on earth to men of good will..." so I am not sure why you used that text here. it would be of interest to hear that explained better.

John, I don't believe Jesus had to sin and die in order to be our substitute. He was able to own our sin and death by drinking the cup of God's wrath in our place. The fact He lived through completely consuming the cup is evidence He conquered sin and death. He carried our sin and death within Himself and deposited them in the most holy place, where they remain to this day awaiting elimination in the lake of fire upon the head of Satan.

We can incur the wrath of God at the end of time by neglecting or rejecting to receive Jesus as our personal Saviour. If we go to our grave without embracing the gift of Jesus, then we shall return from the grave to be eliminated with our own sin and death in the lake of fire.

When we receive Jesus into our hearts and minds we are free from the guilt and condemnation that makes up the cup of God's wrath. It is the truth that sets us free, the truth as it is in Jesus, the truth concerning sin and salvation. There is no freedom if we do not believe that in Jesus we are free from sin.

The unholy thoughts and feelings that torment born again believers, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, are only temptations, and must be seen as such. Otherwise, they are likely to assume that they are not experiencing the victory over sin promised them in Jesus. And then they will be forced to concoct new theories in order to account for the existent of the unholy thoughts and feelings that torment them.

Our High Calling--- Blending the Law and Gospel
-PG- 141
-
What is to bring the sinner to the knowledge of his sins unless he knows what sin is? The only definition of sin in the Word of God is
given us in 1 John 3:4. "Sin is the transgression of the law." The sinner must be made to feel that he is a transgressor. Christ dying upon the
cross of Calvary is drawing his attention. Why did Christ die? Because it was the only means for man to be saved. . . . He took upon Himself our sins that He might impute His righteousness to all who believe in Him. . . . The goodness and the love of God lead the sinner to repentance
toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. The awakened sinner . . . is pointed to the law he has transgressed. It calls to him to
repent, yet there is no saving quality in law to pardon the transgression of law, and his case seems hopeless. But the law draws him to Christ. However deep are his sins of transgression, the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse him from all sin. . . ."

Thank you David for the comments on Luke 2:14.

I find virtue in both translations.

The interlinear reads: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, in men goodwill.

The reason I quoted that scripture is because it was a message from heaven to man upon the birth of Christ. In giving us his Son the Father was offering peace and goodwill to man. As we see in the world there is little goodwill so there is no peace. The way Sin uses the law of God, and establishes in man a legal-istic righteousness it makes no room for goodwill and gives no peace.

The Father in giving us his Son offered us peace and goodwill. As man by sin is afraid of God, and thinks that God is after him to get him, this message is especially meaningful.

It is also true that those who have goodwill have peace. For goodwill is a grace of Love.

Shalom

Yes Charlene, the law came in to expose sin, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. For I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

It is of necessity that wherever there is the breakdown of faith between persons rules come in. But no rules or law can ever reestablish the faith that has been lost. Faith is established when the distrusting one realizes that his reasons for distrust are false and spurious, and moreover when he realizes that the one distrusted is better than he. So yes indeed, the goodness and love of God leadeth thee to repentance.

We need to affirm the scriptural definition of sin as Mike quoted, and I agree with him that the first is the most encompassing definition of sin and that this one definition includes all other definitions:

Rom 14:23 "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.".

James 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 5: 17 All unrighteousness is sin.

Shalom

Thank you for your patience Mike.

In your last post, you voiced concern regarding possible confusion between sin and temptation. It should stand to reason that anyone, who has been victorious over temptation, should know the difference. The confusion that I have seen is that some think, that to have victory is to have no temptation. That is no victory at all.

Mike I know you don't believe that Jesus had to sin and die to be our substitute. That would be self-defeating.

As I have been following your thought in regards to Christ earning the right to be the legal owner of your sin, I see a parallel thought in scripture which I would like to bring out.

First you made a definition if I understand you correctly: that the cup of God's wrath is made up of our guilt and condemnation. This understood correctly is definitely true. Now our guilt and condemnation is a product of our legal-istic self-righteousness, and Christ said that with what measure (judgment) you mete it shall be measured to you again. So we come to see what I have written in 'part one' is the problem of sin in that it has taken the law of God and deceived me and established a righteousness in man that is destructive.

Second, you said that Jesus is our substitute in the sense that He earned the right to own our sin and death … which gives Him the legal right to eliminate them as He sees fit. This thought, though it is fettered, is paralleling the gospel in scripture. (This I am covering in 'part two', hopefully soon to be ready for posting.)

The thought is that Christ earned the right/authority/respect/adoration/faithfulness to judge us, the whole universe, and Satan.

Philippians 2:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Revelation 12:
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole wornd: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The perspective of the controversy between Christ and Satan can be seen in Job. Where God's judgment is contradicted and Job is accused. It was necessary therefore to silence the accuser/accusations. This could only be by revelation of the nature of Satan's righteousness and God's righteousness; namely the truth. These two met at the cross in a revelation that is profound. Heaven has seen it, and Satan was cast out and there was no more room found for him in heaven. And so it is with each man when he will realize this revelation, and accept Christ as his Judge, and receive his judgment, that Satan will be cast out of his life and there shall no more room be found for Satan in him. And they shall overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they shall love not their lives unto the death.

The most common question that arises in people's minds is how can judgment save them. That is because the only judgment they know is accusative, condemning. The revelation of God's righteousness, and judgment which is restorative, up-building, life-giving, needs to be realized and received. His judgment is life.

Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Psalm 9:
8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

There is much more to be said but does this open up, reconcile any thoughts with you?

Shalom

Salvation is not legalistic. Salvation is not from the penalty of God's
law.

John

The above is a quote from your first post here. Can you further explain your statement, in light of the following Scripture?

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us … (Gal.3:13)

What is your understanding of "the curse of the law?" Is this "curse" something different than "the penalty of sin?" (or the consequences of breaking the
law?).

Greetings David

While I have addressed the principles of your question in part one, part one post stops exactly at the point of your question, which is the beginning of part two

Curse of the Law
We need to realize what is meant in the scripture when it speaks about those who are, under the law, by the law, of the law, under sin. In all these is found a righteousness that is not from God, a righteousness which is their own, whose author is Satan. Sin holds dominion upon all them that are of this righteousness. Sin declares that there can be no forgiveness. Satan urges, by the law that the sinner cannot be pardoned. So all who are under the law are possessors of a legal-istic righteousness, the curse of the law, which is not of God, but of Satan. Death is the power of that righteousness. It thrives on penalties.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

I agree that it is the wages of / penalty of Sin. But it is not the wages for / penalty for Sin. In other words it is not of God's righteousness but of Satan's righteousness/sin. The possessors of sin reap the wages from their master (Satan). We may not ascribe to God that which is of the Devil, though the Devil would like it so. Christ came to redeem us from Satan's righteousness/sin to God's righteousness/love.

Being made a curse for us
From Gethsemane to 'It is finished', Christ and scripture tells us, was the work of darkness. It was permitted upon Christ that which was not permitted on Job. Satan was allowed to impose upon Christ his mind, his view of God, his accusative idea of justice/righteousness. We can see from the sweat of blood how foreign this thought and mind was to Christ. We can also see from the testimony of Christ before this and after resurrection of his thoughts of the Father and his righteousness. We can see from what was done to Christ the meaning of

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

It was Satan's purpose at all cost if possible to break the faith of the Son, to sway him from trusting his Father. But the righteousness of God is greater than death, Christ was victorious, He knew His Father differently. The righteousness which is of Faith triumphed over the righteousness/curse of the law.
This is a brief answer, I hope to post part two sometime this weekend.
God Bless and Shalom

[ September 27, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]