Mark: God is real. His Son is real. The work they have and are doing for our salvation is real. There is atonement, an at-one-ment, by which our loving Heavenly Father is making us one with Himself. In that atonement He is cleansing us from sin and self. He is saving us from eternal death. There is nothing we can do to make ourselves one with Him. There is no human merit or element. We have all sinned and can only come to the mercy of God. We do not deserve to be saved, yet He loves us and has provided a way in which we can be reconciled to Him. His Son showed that way. The cross. If we desire to be saved we must go there to be crucified with Christ. To die with our Saviour that we may be raised to newness of life. The Saviour did not nor cannot die that death FOR us. We must die it WITH Him. This atonement is experiencial; it is real. It makes sons and daughters of God. What the Moral Influence theory is I know not. But the power of God's word to uplift and strengthen, to enoble and challenge the human mind is know by all who take Him at His word. That His word is real and that all His promises are for me, that is real. The substitutionary doctrine says that Christ died in my place. What death? The first one? We all die that one. The second one? That is ETERNAL separation from God. Christ was resurrected. He lives. He sits on the right hand of the Father. He has not been eternally separated from Him. So, He has not died that death for us. Which death is it He died or suffered? Is it not the death that crucifies self-will? In Hebrews it says that when He came to the cross He said "Lo, I come to do thy will oh, God….and by that will we are sanctified…" This is not a legal transaction that cleans up the books of heaven. This is a real transaction that cleans up the human heart!

There is a segment in Adventism that in the last 5 decades has grown to the place where they are in the majority and they believe as you state that man is doomed to sin. But this is not what the church taught from the beginning and it is still not officially accepted today.

One of the promises that is dearest to me is the one you quoted, 'Sin shall not have dominion over you'. If Christ cannot deliver us from sin today, His power in the church is limited and we are still slaves of evil. We have only been partially set free. But if we are not fully liberated, we are still slaves. I agree that the gospel teaches complete deliverence from sin. God does everthing well. He is a professional.

The death He died was the death required by the Law. Justice demanded the death of the transgressor, not just that our sins are pardoned.

It is true that it is impossible to live a sinless life on our own. We do have to accept the wedding garmet by faith. The wedding garment is Christ's life of obedience in the place of our rebellion. If we do not see sin in relation to the Law, and forgiveness in relation to the Law, the wedding garement becomes unholy. It is Christ's obedience that we need in the place of our disobedience. This is the only thing that sanctifies us.

The law defines righteousness. It is God's character. And God's character is the Law. By beholding it we become changed. Everything comes together at the focal point which is the cross where mercy and truth, righteousness and peace are combined and the law is magnified and made honourable.

The official church position on the vicarious atonement of Christ is posted along with the other 27 fundimental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church at www.adventist.org. I was happy to see that #9 and #10 are clear on the victory that believers enjoy in Christ. We do not accept the idea that substitutionary atonement leads to defeat.

quote:

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9. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ:
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)

10. The Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

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Maybe my experience is abnormal, but I simply do not feel guilty and unworthy when I fall into sin. I immediately receive and experience the gift of repentance the moment I find myself in sin, but I do not feel guilty or unworthy. Am I weird, or what?

My sins are not the premeditated type. When I fall into sin it's the unintentional kind. Thus, I do not feel like some big fat creepy sinner. Of course, I am sorry I have fallen victim to sin, and I am happy to repent. But the sorrow I feel is intellectual. Can anybody relate?

So, for me, this whole discussion about self righteousness and sin is going over my head. But what does make sense to me is that Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to make atonement, reconcilation and redemption possible for sinners like me.

I think probably the most encompassing definition of sin is - "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23. This one definition includes all other definitions:

James 4
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 5
17 All unrighteousness is sin.

You are blessed Mike. This gift comes from above. There is now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. The reason why you do not have guilt is because you do not own the sin. Repentance disowns the sin. Sorrow is for lack of watchfulness, awareness, similar to a child having done something he did not realize was wrong, until being informed.
All who repent at first awareness are guiltless, as well as those who do not seek their own glory.

Guilt enters when one begins to justify him self, thereby becoming the owner of the sin. In premeditated or habitual sin this self-justification occurs in advance and or habitually. Thus establishing self-righteousness.

Thank you for the meaningful definition of sin.

Thank you, John. I like the way you explained my experience with sin and guilt. God is so good. Jesus became the lawful owner of my sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death. Now, in Christ, I am free from guilt and condemnation. Thank you Jesus!

[ September 23, 2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Hello John & Debbie!

Nice to "see you" again!

I appreciate the way you have tried to bring out the implication of God's love, in your last post above.

As usual; I have lots of questions, but only time for one tonight.

John, I will quote your above post briefly, then ask the question:

"Mark, it is true that the substitutionary doctrine does confirm our guilt and our worthiness of death. At the same time reassures us of a love of God through which He sent His Son to pay the penalty so that we don't have to die."

We are talking here, it seems, about the Atonement. You have stated above that God "sent" His Son.

Now, let me quote Scripture; and ask you to explain the difference, which I will bold for you:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.." (Jo.3:16)

Now, in Jo.3:17:

For God sent not His Son into the world, to condemn the world...."

Can you share with us how to reconcile the differences in wording, from these two verses, and in light of the above quote I took from your post?

The reason I am asking, is because I suspect that many do not have a correct idea of the nature of the first Advent of Christ, and this casts a pall over sound Biblical explanations of what the Atonement is, or is not.

Why the differences of those two verses between "sent," and "gave?" How would the answer to this affect your above quote that I used?

I will look forward to your reply.

David T Battler

I thought I might write the following experience, to perhaps give a little perspective.

Being a third generation Adventist I was brought up with full knowledge and understanding of Adventist doctrine. At the age of six I read the whole Bible from cover to cover. This was a special year in my life. I witnessed a personal answer to prayer in the life of my uncle as he sought God's leading in his life. I covenanted then that when I grow up I will seek God's leading in my life. Growing up in poverty in a communist country meant that our religion had to mean more than a friendly church. We were ridiculed, persecuted, fined for not going to school on Sabbath, and left the country one week before my parents would have been imprisoned and us children taken from them. From early childhood days we learned to stand for our faith. It was easier to stand in those days, for the enemy was known.

When we came to Austria, the situation changed. We were now in a friendly country, excused from school on Sabbath, and had freedom. At this time I was 10 years old and seeing some prosperity and freedom I relaxed. My childhood desires began to tempt me, all in the gray areas naturally. I made some friends and did questionable things. The enemy from outside I had known, but this enemy from within I knew not. Some self-justification, some repentance, some indulgence, some sorrow. I was tossed back and forth. Guilt set in. The knowledge that Christ paid the penalty for me did not remove my guilt but rather increased my fear of the Father. I knew that in order for the sacrifice to be accepted in my place, there would need to be fruit meet of repentance. This I could not muster.

When I was 13 we moved to Canada. I resolved to turn a new leaf. I would not make any friends in the world. This did not trouble me, as I knew what it was like not to have friends for the first 10 years of my life. All my friends were in the church. This I thought was safe. New things, television; Satan found a way to bring the world into our home, the acceptable setting. Teenage years brought more temptations, and though I was resolved to be true to God, I garnered some sins. Guilt increased. I longed to be made right with God. I sorrowed for sin, and had fear. Repentance? What was repentance when inclination to sin was there?

At 16 I was baptized. It was my sincere commitment, hope, and desire that all things should be new. I believed everything the church taught. I believed that Christ was my redeemer, and that through the merits of his blood my past sins would be erased. I knew that he lived a perfect life and believed that his sacrifice was sufficient to atone for my sin. I was hoping for the power of the Holy Spirit in my life, to set me free from my transgressions. But it did not come. I was in every church activity, participating or leading out. Fully engaged in evangelistic programs and prayer meetings. But there was no victory. I wondered why, what did I do wrong? I had no assurance of salvation and did not know how to obtain it. From conversation of Adventist friends, old and young I learned that it was no different with them but it did not seem to bother them. To continue in this way and keep claiming the blood of Christ was like crucifying the Lord afresh. From pastors I heard that we will never know if we are saved until the judgment day. God was up there and we were down here. I continued fully active in the church, not missing in anything, and continued praying for deliverance.

At 22 years of age I determined that this was no good. Things were going nowhere. If there was salvation then it was for now, and not someday. To wait for the judgment day was a foolish thing to do in my mind. My childhood covenant stayed with me. I resolved come what may that I was going to seek audience with God. Immediately I was convicted and stopped watching television. Now I had a couple of hours or more extra each day to spend in seeking the Lord. I came to God not claiming the blood, nor worrying about penalties, not thinking how he would be appeased, made satisfied, nor how my record would be cleansed. I came to him for Salvation.

I came to him with my need. I came at his mercy. My fear and guilt left me. I came to receive from him, for him to show me his will and his way. I received forgiveness. I found strength and victory. I would be convicted almost each day of something and immediately it was as a done thing. Repentance came freely. This is not to say that the carnal nature disappeared, but that it had no more power over me. The Lord began to show me the wretchedness of my religious righteousness. I realized that it was just such a righteousness that crucified him, and I shuddered at the thought. I saw to what great cost heaven went to bring life and salvation to me. I realized that faith is 'trusting him', not believing things about him. I knew that my whole governance of my being was amiss. I began to experience his approval, faith and love. I began to realize the faith of the Son of God and his life in me that I may be a son.

Shalom

Well Mike your conclusion is ??

If we are to maintain the definition of sin, and guilt as stated, then for Christ to become the rightful owner of your sin. He would have had to break faith, to transgress, and then to keep the guilt and condemnation, he would need to self justify. That would of necessity invalidate any atonement.

Mike what do you mean when you say that?

I see there is a concern about how it is all cleaned up with God. How you will stand before him and not have to die.

Mike what you want is forgiveness not a substitute payment, personal forgiveness where you experience him receiving you and setting you free. There is no peace or reconciliation in substitute payment.

Shalom