Some advice from Sister White:

quote:

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Do not place your influence against God's commandments. That law is just as Jehovah wrote it in the temple of heaven. Man may trample upon its copy here below, but the original is kept in the ark of God in heaven; and on the cover of this ark, right above that law, is the mercy seat. Jesus stands right there before that ark to mediate for man.--Manuscript 6a, 1886 (SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 1, p. 1109).

(482) {7ABC 481.5}
We all need to keep the subject of the sanctuary in mind. God forbid that the clatter of words coming from human lips should lessen the belief of our people in the truth that there is a sanctuary in heaven, and that a pattern of this sanctuary was once built on this earth. God desires His people to become familiar with this pattern, keeping ever before their minds the heavenly sanctuary, where God is all and in all.--Letter 233, 1904. {7ABC 482.1}

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Mark

Who on earth are you talking to in your last post? How are any of us to know what or who you refer to?

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The URL has been removed as it was placed here without first obtaining permission. - Daryl

[ September 28, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

In wrapping up the account of your early Christian experience on the last page John you wrote:

quote:

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Now I had a couple of hours or more extra each day to spend in seeking the Lord. I came to God not claiming the blood, nor worrying about penalties, not thinking how he would be appeased, made satisfied, nor how my record would be cleansed. I came to him for Salvation.

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At the risk of sounding judgmental, this is where you began to go off track. You set up your own experience as the test of faith here rather than bringing your experience to be tested by the Word. Now you judge the Word by your experience.

You continue:

quote:

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I came to him with my need. I came at his mercy. My fear and guilt left me. I came to receive from him, for him to show me his will and his way. I received forgiveness. I found strength and victory. I would be convicted almost each day of something and immediately it was as a done thing. Repentance came freely. This is not to say that the carnal nature disappeared, but that it had no more power over me.

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You seem to be saying that victory comes naturally to you now. If there is no law, it would. Have you considered that what you consider to be victory is simply that when you do wrong, your conscience has been re-educated to test itself by your ego (the term used by psycologists to refer to self) rather than the Law of God. And so you are truly dead to the Law. But is this a wholesome death?

When you decided to seek salvation without regard to the Law, so that you are not completely without standards you've created in your mind a new kind of righteousness. Nature abhors a vacuum, and you've filled the void created by discarding the standard of conduct, the Law, with a new righteouness "apart from the law." The problem is it is not Biblical. God is a God of mercy but mercy is only mercy where there are rules. The mercy seat, God's throne, rests on the Law. Mercy covers the Law, as a magnifying glass making it honourable. And the Law is the foundation of mercy.

[ September 28, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Amen Mark,

And for many, this is the problem:

Selected Messages Book 3--- The Reception of the Messages----PG- 83--- Secure From Satan's Seductive Delusions.

-"Men may get up scheme after scheme, and the enemy will seek to seduce souls from the truth, but all who believe that the Lord has spoken through Sister White, and has given her a message, will be safe from the many delusions that will come in these last days."--Letter 50,
1906.

Early Writings of Ellen G. White--- Spiritual Gifts----PG- 256

"Many who embraced the third message had not had an experience in the two former messages. Satan understood this, and his evil eye was upon them to overthrow them; but the third angel was pointing them to the most holy place, and those who had had an experience in the past messages were pointing them the way to the heavenly sanctuary. Many saw the perfect chain of truth in the angels' messages, and gladly received them in their order, and followed Jesus by faith into the heavenly sanctuary. These messages were represented to me as an anchor to the people
of God. Those who understand and receive them will
be kept from being swept away by the many delusions of Satan."

The first Angel's message points us to the santuary..."for the hour of His judgement is come"

Thank you kindly Mark for your thoughts and concerns.

That would indeed be a very sad situation. You seem to have missed the fact that it was to him I came not to self. By their fruits you shall know them.

Do you not hear that your reasoning follows along the lines of those who condemned the Lord. I suppose the paralytic that was healed should not have accepted forgiveness, for the forgiveness he received was not by the law. He offered no sacrifice, did not go though any ceremonial procedure, but dropped in through the roof. He accepted it upon the authority of him who healed him. Was not Christ censured for forgiving him? If Christ was able to speak those words to him, is he not able to speak those words to me? Or do I have to go through the system, the shadow, which could not make the comers thereunto perfect, and impose the shadow on the real. Is not Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life? Are you not holding the atonement doctrine out of perspective?

This conflict in understanding of the law & righteousness has been going on since the beginning of sin, but has been crystallized with the arrival of the Messiah.

You know Mark, the law is a witness, and it witnesses to the righteousness that is of Faith, that it is righteousness. Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Nevertheless those who were under the law could not see it as long as the veil was on their face.

Now the contest here is not the Law, but it is the righteousness under the law, which is preventing the righteousness of God that is by Faith. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; The issue is what is the lawful use of the law.

Since no one has yet defined the "Adventist" view. It appears that the issue in your mind is the death penalty. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I seem to be getting from all you have said so far, that in your mind. The death penalty seems to make or break the law. If there is no death penalty, then there is no Law. That God's righteousness is fulfilled in executing the death penalty, and that this is immutable. This immutable death penalty is the virtue of the law. The strength of God's righteousness is the law. The whole plan of atonement rotates around dealing with the death penalty. If there is no death penalty then you do not see any need for Christ to die. Forgiveness is effected by God providing a substitute sacrifice to die to satisfy the demands of the law (penalty). And we, if we follow the understanding of the shadow, 'by faith' apply all those to Christ and ourselves, are then safe.
To sum it:
That God has made a law for the purpose that it’s transgressors would then be found guilty of transgression and sentenced to death.
That the law has such penalties for making wrongs right.

I would like an answer from you in regards to this issue of penalty.

Shalom

[ September 29, 2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Mark & Gary

I just went back & re read this thread in detail. I can see why you & others have gotten your backs up with some of John's writings.

You have both quoted from his testimony on page five, in the sense of accusing him of spiritualism. Is what you have done Biblical? Even tho you quoted Bible?

First of all, it is rare that a person's personal testimony, is intended as an exposition on some point of theology. You have both treated his testimony as his giving us a precise theological statement.

I think the reason you are so threatened by what he wrote, is because John has very accurately described a very real dilema with many others in the church, who do not have any real assurance of their salvation, or in the Atonement.

John has shared a very personal journey, (1 Jo.1:1-3), along with some personal impressions along the way, and this is not easy to do publicly; but I believe he deserves more credit than you give him; and I believe that you have let your own preconceived opinions get in the way of what is really going on here. The Bible calls something like this idolatry...when we hold our opinions so close, that they cannot see the proper sphere of another's opinions. Let us not forget, the way you have taken little snippets of John's testimony, and made them out to be apostate, new age belief, reflects sin on your part. Intelligent Bible study would have been much more preferable.

RH.1887-06-28.005
The greatest detriment to our churches, that which brings them into weakness and disfavor with God, is unhappy jealousies and differences. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Then let every soul examine himself, and see if he is approaching the committal of any such sins.

Hello John: We've been up to our elbows in tomatos the last few days. I hope to give an answer before long, but don't let that stop anyone else. Shalom.

John, I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Please help me out. Are you suggesting that death is not the penalty for transgressing God's law? And are you also saying that there is no connection between death and transgressing God's law?

Linda, Charlene, Daryl and others, I have repeatedly suggested that Satan, the scapegoat, is the one who will "make an atonement" (Lev 16:10) by dying the second death with the sins of the saved. Jesus did not die the second death, instead He "tasted" (Heb 2:9) and consumed the cup of God's wrath (the second death), thereby earning the right to own our sin and second death, and that He "accomplished the work which He came to do" (DA 758) before He laid down and took up His own life.

But so far no one has addressed these issues. Why? Please show me in the Bible or SOP where it says Jesus, and not Satan, dies the second death of the saved with their sins.

Why would the Devil have to die with the sins of the saved if Jesus has already eliminated them by dying the second death? If Jesus died the second death why was He resurrected with the sins of the saved? If Jesus died the second death why wasn't the plan of salvation completed then and there?

Greetings Mike, peace be with you all:

Your question

quote:

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John, I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Please help me out. Are you suggesting that death is not the penalty for transgressing God's law? And are you also saying that there is no connection between death and transgressing God's law?

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Yes, I affirm that there is no penalty for transgression of God's Law. But there definitely is death as a reality of transgressing God's law. I thought I had made it clear from the beginning that Penalty is not scriptural and that the word is not used in scripture even once. This is a crucial thought concept. I invite you to reread my posts.

Let us try and understand this. I will present this using another perspective. Penalties exist only in Arbitrary Laws and never in Real Laws. Real Laws never carry Penalties.

Arbitrary Laws
What makes an Arbitrary Law? An Arbitrary Law is arbitrary because it expects you to 'get away with it' unless there is a penalty, and unless someone enforces it. Arbitrary Laws change with times and circumstances. This world is full of Arbitrary Laws. All governments of this world deal in Arbitrary Laws. Arbitrary Laws are not necessarily bad. Arbitrary Laws need enforcement, and the only way to enforce Arbitrary Laws is by intervention (if caught). Man's Laws are mostly Arbitrary Laws

Real Laws
Real Laws on the other hand never need penalties because they are real. That is to say there is no possibility of 'getting away with it'. For example the Law of Gravity is a Real Law in this world for us. If someone throws a rock straight up in clear space and remains standing there, the fact that it will come down on his head is not a penalty. It is reality. Real Laws need no enforcement, and so in Real Laws the only way to be saved from the results is by intervention (if there is time). And so there are many Real Laws that I am sure you all can think of.

God's Laws are Real Laws, not Arbitrary Laws.
In fact all the Real Laws that man is aware of, God has established. Now as in the physical realm so it is also in the spiritual realm. God established a Real Law for the spirit and its governance. Transgressing the Law of Life results in death. No penalties, just reality. Now you might say, then why are we not all dead? Just one minute. First we must understand the Real Law. When God told Adam in the day you eat of it you shall surely die, he told him reality. He did not promise him a penalty. Let us understand this.

Now God is above all physical laws. I think that is easy enough for all to agree. When the three young men in Babylon were thrown into the fire, we see it. Israel crossing the Red Sea. I am sure you all can think of many more occasions when God intervened with laws greater than our realm to create, change or void the result.

In similar manner the Law of Sin and Death is real, but God's Law of Life is greater than death as can be attested to by the resurrection from the dead. Now some might view this as only physical. The scripture however draws a spiritual parallel reality. The resurrection of the spirit and soul is not only physical, but is of necessity spiritual and deals with the Law of Sin versus the Law of Faith (Life). As I have said in an earlier post, as soon as man sinned, God stepped in with a special dispensation of Life, to give time, so that as many as would be saved could be saved. In other words God has provided safety (mercy) measures, so that that which was imminent, might be avoided.

To understand Salvation is to understand the glory of the righteousness of God, which is by faith (the Law of Life), which sets us free from the Law of Sin and Death. To understand redemption is to understand the purpose and reality of what was accomplished in the life and death of Christ.

Therefore I bear witness that Salvation is not from the penalty of God's Law, thereby from God's righteousness, thereby from God Himself. There is no such thing. This, as stated in previous posts, is a concept that Satan deceived man into. Salvation is rather from the Law of Sin and Death to the Law of Life, thereby to God's righteousness, thereby reconciling us with God. This is primarily and foremost spiritual, and then afterwards physical, since God has already established temporary (time based) measures to sustain physical life, while the outworking of Salvation is accomplished.

Shalom

[ October 02, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]