Hello John

While I see some of the personal remarks made about you here as out of line; your last post does raise some questions, when combined with certain other things you have been saying. I think that one or two legitimate concerns about doctrine may have been raised.

Let me quote from your above post to summarize my concern/question:

"Yes, I affirm that there is no penalty for transgression of God's Law."

If I may ask you some questions first, I would like to know:

a) Do you see "penalty" or "substitution" for our sins, or for transgression of God's law, as denigrating God's character, as that of a loving God? Can you explain your answers from Scripture?

b) Let us consider this and related Scriptures

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement

What does/should this verse mean to

a) Christians

b) non-Christians?

Have you, according to this Scripture, received this Atonement? If so, how do you know? And, if so, do you NOW "joy in God," because of it, as did the apostle? Please explain.

Mark

Please forgive me for yelling at you on the internet again...

One of these days I will stop hitting the rock twice when God says "once."

You are lucky you have tomatoes to worry about...we had snow yesterday and I had to cycle 10 miles in it...but I enjoyed it so it wasn't as bad for me, as for others.

If I may Mark; I would like to ask you the same questions above in my last post, that I just asked our brother John.

Mike

Your above post was VERY confusing to me.

First of all, I checked out the page number reference you gave for DA. There is nothing there about Satan having any part of the Atonement.

I am quite surprised to see you talk along this line, as if Jesus somehow did not pay it all, as the song goes.

It might help if you check your above reference, and give us the specific quote you are referring to; (and try to re-explain it), and if I may also ask you the above questions I just asked John & Mark; I would appreciate it very much.

John, thank you for clarifying your thoughts on penalty and sin. I like the distinction you made between arbitary and real laws. But I would argue that since God can bypass the laws of nature, that means that not even the "real" laws of nature are, strictly speaking, free from being arbitary.

And death, from what is written in Gen 3:20-22, is not independent from the penalty God imposed upon mankind, i.e., God disallowed access to the fruit of the tree of life, which perpetuates life, because man sinned. Thus, sin and death seem related. The relation is based on a penalty imposed by God. Otherwise, man would have lived forever having access to the fruit of life.

Do you see what I mean?

David, this computer I'm using is very slow so it's not real easy to repost the quotes. However, they are in an earlier post somewhere.

I totally believe our atonement, so far as it has to do with our salvation, is 100% based upon the work Jesus accomplished for us. He lived and died the perfect life and death.

But I also happen to believe that the atonement, so far as sin and the second death is concerned, is not complete until Satan dies with the sins of the saved. Jesus secured our salvation by defeating the second death. His sojourn in the tomb involved the first death, as evidenced by, 1) His resurrection and, 2) the fact Satan dies in place of the saved with their sins.

Do you see what I mean?

I think this is the text that Mike is referring to:

quote:

---

Leviticus 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

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What is this text actually telling us about the two goats, particularly the scapegoat?

Daryl

Thankyou for adding this text for us to refer to.

Mike

No matter how you put it now, your above post seems solid in asserting that Jesus does not, did not quite pay all that was needed for the Atonement; and that Satan, somehow, possesses atleast a small role, in a final disposition of our sins. This is shocking to me that someone would interpet these passages so, and I have to wonder if other churches are not correct when they say we have often missed the boat on this one; if your post reflects our official teaching.

I am still waiting for you to address my question re the Desire Of Ages quote you made above. It would be helpful, I feel, to see where you were coming from there.

Also, to anyone following this topic; let us remember, there were actually 3 distinct rituals that took place in the OT sanctuary, in accordance with God's instructions for the Day Of Atonement Services therein.

Is it not a mistake to isolate this Azazel Rite from the other two that took place on that day?

Also, I have a related question about Lev.16:21

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

What is the signifigance of the phrase:

"by the hands of a fit man?"

Mike you said:

quote:

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I have repeatedly suggested that Satan, the scapegoat, is the one who will "make an atonement" (Lev 16:10) by dying the second death with the sins of the saved.

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Atonement under the sacrificial system is by blood. The scapegoat makes no atonement in that sense, but once the sins of God's people are removed from themselves and the sanctuary, they are eventually transferred to the scapegoat. There is no virtue in the scapegoat as part of the atonement however. The cleansing is all by virtue of the Lord's goat and bull. And the transferring of sin to the scapegoat is by virtue of the Lord's goat and the work of the High Priest.

John is right in this: The punishment of Satan has nothing to do directly with our atonement. His punishment is only reaping his own harvest. It does not reflect back on us. But it appears as though the very sins satan has tempted us with consume him.

John you asked:

quote:

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I would like an answer from you in regards to this issue of penalty.

---

God does punish. But not vindictively. God says vengence is mine. But not vindictiveness. As Mike pointed out, He barred the way to the tree of life so that Adam would not immortalize sin.

The serpent disputed the existance of this death penalty at first. He said you will not surely die. Now we have sin and death but he still says the same thing - you will not die - eternally.

Several posts back you asked how Christ could die the second death in a few hours. It is a mystery but the scripture says that Christ offered himself through the eternal Spirit. In other words His sacrifice trancends time. Like Christ Himself, it is Eternal. As he hung on the cross, the Father clothed the final sufferings of Christ in impenatrible blackness. He went into the 'black hole' of eternal death, but came out victorious. Faith does not fully understand this - it is clothed by the Father in mystery - but faith claims this fact. The Patriarchs obtained the same salvation as we have because their faith laid hold on the eternal sacrifice of Christ.

Christ is who He claims to be - the Eternal living One. And the Spirit is who He claims to be - an all present personal being. The Father is who he claims to be - the Eternal One. These three are in fellowship with each other. They work together for our salvation - to bring us into harmony with the Divine Will, the Law.

Please don't be insulted by this, but when Dr. Kellogg was advocating similar ideas to yours, Sister White never told him that everything he said was wrong. It was the opposite. She said that much of what he said might have some truth to it. The problem with his teaching was it was speculative. He used scripture to back up everything, but not correctly. So she wrote many pages in Testimonies Volume 8 on the dangers of speculative knowledge.

For many people, their imaginations are not so active, and this is not much of a trap. But I am like you; I like to think out-of-the-box. That can be a great thing. but ... ... ...

If we force fit our own ideas on the testimony of the scripture about the Law, and the Law givers, we are sure to loose our way. This is speculation and it leads to spiritualism.

[ October 04, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

The Scapegoat doctrine is always one that brings out the best and worst of people. In the closing chapters of GC EGW brings out the fact that when Jesus comes He places the sins of His people, removed from the sanctuary, on the head of satan. He bears these sins in the wilderness for 1000 years and eventually is destroyed with these sins on him. The good news is that all of our sins have been removed from us and placed on him. When all of sin has been consumed the atonement will have been completed in all of its aspects and heaven and the universe will be cleansed and everything will be in harmony with God and each other.

I'm going to ask someone else to do my research this time. Greg, does it say in the GC that Satan bears our sins during the 1000 years, or is it at the end, afterwards.

Actually, on second thought, I'll take your word for it. It makes sense because the 1000 years would be the antitype of the time that the goat lives in the wilderness in solitude before dying. But Satan bearing sin in the wilderness does not seem to me to have any atoning merit for the saints. It is the blood of Christ that exclusively has merit. Satan's blood, his punishment does nothing to save us, except in the sense that everything God does is done with the welfare of His creatures in mind.

[ October 04, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]