John, I do not believe in predestination which does not allow us the freedom to choose Jesus and salvation. In Christ we are predestined to be saved. I believe we are born unsaved and must be born again to be saved. But if we refuse to make the choice for Jesus and salvation then we remain lost and condemned.

Neither do I believe that God's foreknowledge eliminates our freedom of choice. Possessing a sinful nature is what restricts our freedom to choose. We are born in slavery to sin, self and Satan, and as such, our ability to exercise our freedom of choice is seriously limited. We cannot not sin. We must be born again and partake of the divine nature before we are able to choose Jesus and His righteousness.

Just because God knew created beings would fall, before He created them, does not mean He made them fall. God's ability to foresee the future choices of created beings does not rob them of their freedom to choose, not any more than someone saying what will happen in a story he's already seen or read.

If God does not know the choices people will make in the future, and the far reaching consequences, He could not predict the future (prophecy) or promise sin will not arise a second time. For God life is a rerun. He already knows what will happen, which doesn't make things boring for Him, instead the aniticipation of things to come makes life doubly fun for God.

Again, because God foresaw the fall of created beings, and chose to create them anyhow, makes Him indirectly responsible for the existence of sin and death. Thus, He's also responsible for the elimination of sin and death.

[ November 18, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, I agree that since the fall man has become slave to sin and thus lost his freedom. This I have stated several times and also in my last post, but this was not so when God created him. When God created man, he was free. God was ready for the 'if man should sin', but he did not foresee that the 'if' will happen. If God foresaw that the 'if' will happen then it could not be an 'if', and his warning and instruction to man is mindless and meaningless. The dispute here is not God's omniscience, but the idea of a foreknowledge that knows the 'if' that will happen, which means there is no 'if', which means there is no freedom. Such foreknowledge and a free moral agent at creation are irreconcilable. That is not the way God created man, and we must not impute the fallen state of man which has no freedom upon that which God created. Therefore what God created was 'good' and there can be no culpability on God's part for man not having been faithful. God made man able to be faithful and gave man the responsibility of being so.

Mike you said

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Just because God knew created beings would fall, before He created them, does not mean He made them fall. God's ability to foresee the future choices of created beings does not rob them of their freedom to choose, not any more than someone telling what will happen in a story he's already seen or read.
If God does not know the choices people will make in the future, and the far-reaching consequences, He could not predict the future (prophecy) or promise sin will not arise a second time. For God life is a rerun. He already knows what will happen, which doesn't make things boring for Him, instead the anticipation of things to come makes life doubly fun for God.

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Such a concept of foreknowledge is irreconcilable.

First, prophesy is not intended to tell us that God knows the future of the choices and actions of his creation as some skit or story read, that will be played out; nor that such type of foreknowledge is what ascertains that sin will rise no more. The scripture tells us:

Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Prophesy is based and intended to reveal that God has mastery (rules) in the kingdom of men (this is the world course). We must realise that God did not and does not allow sin to go rampant and wild. God has limited the domain of sin. He also has purposed that the various dominions/deceptions of sin shall be revealed in the course of history and has given such and such a time for each to be manifested. So we may rest assured that though evil reigns in this world, God has mastery over it and will bring an end to it in due season. We can see this more fully in the following reason made by Gabriel to Daniel. God has to work to accomplish his purpose and rules (has mastery) over the kingdom of men.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

This is not just the unfolding of something he 'saw or read - a rerun'. It is the active reality of something happening for the first time, yet realising that God says "thus far and no further". This interference of God we can also see plainly in Balaam's inability to curse Israel, and it can be seen all over this world's history.
God's foreknowledge is however based on his knowledge of what 'we are made of' as well as his purposes. He knows all the 'what ifs'. The issue of 'sin not rising again' does not have anything to do with God having read or seen the events of the future as in a book. It has to do with God knowing what 'son's of God' are made of. Just as it is known that pure gold does not rust, nor corrode, nor corrupt; so he knows that those who have been purified with fire and are become pure gold that has been tried in the fire, will not corrupt themselves.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Going back to the issues of the condition of man.
When God created man, man was made good and free. Since the fall however, man became a slave to sin and was no longer free. This is why man needs to be saved from sin. Man needs a Saviour from sin. God knows the workings of sin and he knows the way out. Consider this Mike, sin came by preaching; Satan preached to Eve and Eve to Adam; and salvation is likewise by preaching, preaching of the word of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Christ is the 'living word'! He lives the word that he speaks. If there were nothing said, there would be nothing to believe. If he does not live it we would have no one to believe. Deception, darkness and blindness are an 'erroneous thought'. Truth, light and sight are a 'true thought'. God sent his Son to bear witness unto truth, to open the blind eyes, to set free them that are in bondage. The revelation of this 'truth, light, life' cost a tremendous sacrifice, for there is enmity on the side of error to truth. Christ endured much in order to bring us the light of life. I pray Mike that you no longer hold God culpable for sin. Christ, the living word of life, never thought such a thing, but he places the responsibility square on us, and says 'take heed therefore how you hear'.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Christ's death has to do with him saving us from the dungeon of sin, and not from God's righteousness. Had Christ not spoken or preached the word of life he would never have suffered the cross. This has to do with the direct conflict of light with darkness, and not with substitute payment of penalty satisfying God's law. The concept of the substitute penalty payment is one of the aspects of the dungeon of sin. The transfer of responsibility of unfaithfulness/sin is another aspect of dungeon of sin. Coming to the light is taking up the responsibility of faithfulness that God originally gave us. Repentance from sin is 'bringing judgment unto truth'. Mercy, forgiveness and grace means living in the light, and becoming a partaker of God's righteousness.
Shalom

[ November 26, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

John, thank you for the study. It is apparent to me that we are both convinced of what we believe. I appreciate the emphasis you place on the love of God. I am willing to agree to disagree agreeably. We do not see eye to eye concerning the meaning and purpose of Jesus' death on the cross. Nor do we agree on the function of God's foreknowledge. I look forward to reading your posts in future.

John said:

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God was ready for the 'if man should sin', but he did not foresee that the 'if' will happen.

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Based on the above quote, I have created a new topic in this forum to study that aspect.

As far as this topic goes, have we found the truth of this matter?

Did Christ bear our sin/guilt?

Daryl

The enclosed Scripture seems to speak to your question best:

1 Pet.2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Verse 24 in particular tells us that Jesus did indeed "bare our sins," and so this is a point we should consider established well by Scripture.

What does not seem so well established, is what did God mean here when he said jesus bare these sins "in His own body on the tree?"

I would be very interested Daryl, to read your understanding of this point. I believe that this point would go a long ways in answering the question, if we can figure out what is being said in this passage.

I need to look a few things up; and I wil come back when I find them...

Beings Jesus died of a "Broken Heart"....I would say he felt the magnitude of all the sins ever committed, plus the great disapointment in His created beings.....very deeply in His body, to the point of dying of a broken heart.

The text David provided seems very clear to me!

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1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

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I guess I will need to re-read this topic to see where the problem or confusion is in the first place.

Yes Daryl & Amen!

I was also thinking that this text seems quite clear.

I also intend to re read this topic tonight, and comment further then.

But I will say, that when I read this text last night; it struck me that maybe, there is a part we have not really understood so well, within this topic.

I would be really interested to hear from others about the short phrase I bolded in the above, supplied text. It says that Jesus bore our sins "IN HIS OWN BODY. (on the cross.)" I think this may be one of the several important points that can help us to correctly understand the atonement Of Christ.

But yes, it is clear that Jesus did bear our sins on the cross. Does anyone have any thoughts on why sin is in the plural in the above text? Would there be a difference, if it was "sin," or "sins" here?

Charlene; if you have any quotes you can think of from Scripture; I would be very appreciative. I can think of a few things from S.O.P, but I would like to gather together some central Bible texts that would speak clearly to this point you have made. I am studying with some people who want to know the SDA views on this; and that is why I am asking for Scriptures right now.

Paul wrote something very similar in Rom 8:3 when he said Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh." Both Paul and Peter seem to say that Jesus inherited sinful flesh, which is how and why He was tempted in all points and bore sin on the cross.