Mike, I am sorry but this one really is confusing. While there are some good thoughts in your post they are desperately mingled with disaster.

You said that it is the second death that satisfies the law (of God I assume), but from which there is no salvation. I do not understand why God's Law (whoever that is) would be satisfied (only a person can be satisfied) in a death in which one 'confesses his guilt, accepts condemnation and then curses God until the flames consume him'. What is the virtue of that? Is that not the ultimate sin, to acknowledge one's wrong and then curse someone else for it? This sounds to me more like the 'law of sin and death' and that which the devil desires us to do. Is that not what he was tempting Job to do? Or is that how God's law is justified in having condemned the sinner? Is that not what Satan does; accuses and condemns and then tries to make the circumstances so averse as to make the victim commit that which he accused him of? Is God satisfied in that from which there is no salvation?

Next you said that Jesus consumed and conquered our sin and second death in our place, thereby earning the right to transfer them upon the head of Satan, who will die the above second death. Why would Jesus consume and conquer the 'righteous requirements of' (that which satisfies) God's law? In contrast to that, the scripture speaks of Christ conquering the 'law of sin and death'!

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Your thought further indicates that the law of God is not satisfied with the death of Christ, and will not be satisfied until Satan dies the above second death. How then did he conquer it? What is the point? Did Christ come just for the purpose of transferring our sin and guilt to Satan? How does Christ obtain our sin and guilt in the first place? How were they transferred from us to him? How is the above law satisfied in this transfer? What force of sin and guilt are the saved facing, if they have been saved from sin? What does it mean to be saved from sin?

Then, you maintain the thought of penalty though it is not once named in the scriptures. You apparently (by what you have said) maintain it by the concept of deductive reasoning based on that whatever is negative to physical life and its enjoyment is a penalty. What is the virtue of God or his law (whoever that is) being satisfied by inflicting these penalties? How many penalties are there? Or if it is all one and the same, why is God gradually eking it out in various levels getting more fatal as we go along? I do not see what virtue that is supposed to reveal, considering He will only be satisfied in the end. What does the shield of salvation mean to you? I cannot see it meaning anything else than being saved from the above ultimate satisfaction of God's Law. Why does the law of God have any need to do all this requiring if undiluted guilt kills like a nuclear bomb? Is it not evident that God is seeking to prevent this death rather than require it? How is God's law then satisfied or WHO is satisfied in the final death of the sinner if God says that He is not?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Mike, there is no such thing with God. All the principles above are those of Satan's righteousness. God's righteousness is entirely contrary to these. In fact he sent his Son to save us from these. The ideas presented above as being of God's law are those of the 'law of sin and death' of which Satan is the author.

You said that the spiritual death to sin, self and Satan is the most important thing we can say about death. That is true, but you also said that we must first die spiritually before we can receive the salvation Jesus wrought out for us on the cross. That is an utter impossibility. Paul says,

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

All of the spiritual death and birth and life can only be accomplished with Christ. For Christ said, without me ye can do nothing. Apart from the cosmic implications of Christ's life and death, there is nothing in his life, death and resurrection that benefits us except we are in it with him. Salvation from sin is only effected as we are in him and he in us. There is no abstract or theoretical salvation.

Satan does not understand repentance, forgiveness, death to self, and birth from above, neither does the law of sin and death. Only the law of life knows all about it. May God open our eyes to it.

Shalom

John, once again, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this deep discussion. I truly enjoy digging deeply with you. Although, sometimes it feels like two people trying to talk using differing definitions for key words.

Please, allow me to summarize what I hear you saying, and then correct me where I've gotten it wrong.

I think I hear you saying that God does not punish sinners with death. Instead death is the natural consequence of sin. Jesus saves sinners from death, not by dying in their place, but by motivating and empowering them to live without sin. Past sins are simply forgiven and forgotten.

Did I get it right?

P.S. I'm not avoiding the questions you raised in response to my last post. I will answer them once I'm sure I understand your position.

Mike, thank you for your patience. Your statement is precariously perched so as to confirm or deny it or any part of it would be misunderstood.

I have laboured since your last post to clarify the misconception. How do I answer your question when as you have said there are definitions that need to be realized? These definitions are not only yours or mine, but to understand the will and thought of God, his mind towards us. May his spirit illumine our eyes and open our ears to see the wonderful truths in his word. There is more than definitions, the perspective is very vital. In the following discussion I have set aside the question of temporal death as it is not definitive to salvation, for all die this death whether saved or lost.

The fundamental idea of life and death.
In your question there are two fundamental concepts involved. One deals with our understanding of God's righteousness, judgment and justice. The other by same implication deals with our understanding of unrighteousness, that is sin, the problem of sin, and salvation. The fundamental idea carried in your presentation and that of others here is that death is the satisfaction of God's righteousness and solves the sin problem. On the other hand, I testify and bear witness that it is LIFE that is the satisfaction of God's righteousness and solves the sin problem. I will quote scripture and then ask a few questions for thought and perspective. At the end I will make a summary which hopefully will be understood with meaning.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I would like to ask, since Satan is a murderer from the beginning, how is he a murderer if God is the one who holds the power of life, (and by inference death)? The Bible further tells us that Satan holds the power of death, shall we then also say that he by inference holds the power of life? If God is in charge of giving/maintaining life (and by inference death), how is Satan a murderer? Do we then assign Satan's acts to God? Am I asking strange questions? Is that not what it amounts to in the doctrines and thoughts of many? Did not God provide TIME and SPACE in order to allow for the free will of those made in his image to have a domain of operation?

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

In the above verse Christ portrays the point as to who causes death and who gives life. Is that too difficult? Is the misunderstanding of God's righteousness so blinding that this cannot be seen? If God's righteousness is satisfied in death, is he not a murderer then? Does not Satan commit murder by accusations and finding fault? Shall God do the same? Does not the above scripture tell us that Christ came to save us from the murderer, and to give us life?

Death is not God's penalty for sin. Death is not part of God's righteousness. It is a reality, which God foretold would be the result of sin, not that God would cause it to be. It is part of Satan's righteousness, the murderer. When man fell under the domain of Satan, he became subject to Satan's law of sin and death. God sent his Son into the world, that the world through him might be saved.

Judgment
We need to define judgment. I would also like to draw specific attention to the thoughts that Jesus tied in with the meaning of murderer. He abode not in the truth, there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Now I would like to consider a moment the implications of that thought. Why should the murderer aspect be tied in with no truth and lies? Where there is no truth but lies, there is no "judgment" but there are lusts. Now the word "judgment" here does not mean a judicial verdict of condemnation, but it means the ability to reason, judge, have "judgment" to reason by, such as is expressed in the following scriptures.

Isaiah 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
Proverbs 2:9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
Proverbs 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

For our judgment to be brought unto truth means to pass from death to life; means to be set free from the dominion of Satan to the kingdom of God. Now truth here involves much more than technical 'knowledge'. Truth in judgment deals with the manner and means by which our judgment operates to arrive at the result. All Sinners, Satan, and fallen Angels operate by lust and not judgment, and they work desperately to avoid judgment, therefore the more lies. It makes no difference whether they are religious or not. Much of religion is an avoidance of judgment. What is the murderer part? It is that all Sinners, Satan, and fallen Angels nevertheless use their judgment to find fault, accuse and condemn others, while lust and avoidance of judgment govern their own selves.

Isaiah 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
James 4:2-3 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Judgment is the way of eternal life and lust is the way of death. If we are to have fellowship with God we must have fellowship in judgment with him. He sent his Son to establish our judgment unto truth.

Isaiah 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

We see that we are cleansed from sin through judgment with the Lord. Judgment is the path of LIFE. All of God's ways are judgment. This is the way of life, not death, but life. Judgment renders the result of one's righteousness. Therefore the nature of the righteousness determines the judgment. I have repeatedly said that God's righteousness is life-giving. Why are we to be 'clothed' in his righteousness, if it is not to be saved from death? If on the other hand his righteousness causes death in finding one fault what is the benefit to having it? Is not our righteousness which causes death, and therefore God invites us to forsake our filthy rags and take his glorious robe of righteousness, that we may be partakers of his glory, his everlasting life?

Forgiveness and Mercy
Without setting any aside, two of the most pertinent graces of God's righteousness are mercy and forgiveness. I have in previous posts shown that the righteousness established by sin is accusative and condemning, therefore the above graces are mandatory if we are to be set free from the condemnation of sin. Our spirit must become partaker of these graces of mercy and forgiveness. God's ability to forgive is not the problem. Sinner's inability to receive the forgiveness is the problem. Forgiveness is part of the glory of God. It is the glory of God to forgive. Yes the Lord does freely forgive iniquity and transgression and sin.

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;
Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.

Faith/trust is the foundation of God's glory, without it none of the fruits of the spirit are possible. When man fell under the dominion of sin, he departed from the glory of God. He became partaker of the spirit of Satan to a greater or lesser degree, but nevertheless of his spirit. That means that man became an accuser and self-justifier. Faith is necessary for forgiveness to be received.

Visiting the iniquity

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Psalms 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.

In the Bible we find the word punish used in reference to God's reckoning with sinners. The Hebrew word 'paqad' , which has been so translated, is not inclined to mean 'punishment of penalty' since the word of God does not support the thought of penalty. It however does mean to 1) to attend to, muster, number, reckon, visit, appoint, look after, care for. Now these visits, reckoning and attending to, can be something positive or negative. When God 'visited' Israel in their distress in Egypt, it was redemptive. When God 'visited' Sarah she was blessed to have a child. These visits reveal God's righteousness. On the other hand when God 'visited' Sodom and Gomorrah the reckoning there was according to their perversion. When God visits the iniquity it is that persons own righteousness that is reckoned/exacted upon him.

Psalms 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
Proverbs 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The vital understanding here is to understand the separation between that which proceeds from God's righteousness, his glory, which is unto life; and the wages of sin's righteousness (unrighteousness) which sinner reaps. We have to realize here that God is not imitating sinners. What the word is telling us is that God offers us his righteousness that we may live with him forever. Those that refuse it and insist upon their own righteousness (unrighteousness) shall be judged by their own standard. All Sinners avoid judgment but God has declared that he shall bring every work into judgment. Each one will render his own judgment. An example of such is seen in Nathan's visit to David, though the LORD did not do according to David's judgment. (2 Sam 12: 1-13)

There is therefore a world of difference between God's judgment that is of his righteousness; and the judgment that is of our righteousness/unrighteousness. Which judgment do you want to be judged by? Let us therefore today become partakers of that righteousness. This is the difference between penalty and wages.

Jeremiah 21:8 And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

To summarize then the principal definitions and perspective,

• 1) Satan is murderer from the beginning and holds the power of death.
  2) He holds in bondage his subjects through fear that is established by a wicked righteousness within us.
  3) Satan, fallen Angels and Sinners live by lust and avoid judgment. Judgment is perverted to destruction.
  4) God is the giver of life and sent his Son into the world to save us from Satan's power of death.
  5) God's righteousness has no satisfaction in death, has no penalty, therefore Christ paid no such penalty.
  6) Judgment is fundamental element of God's righteousness, which he desires to impart to us that we may be saved
  7) God's call to his judgment is gospel and salvation so we may be saved from the judgment of sin and death.
  8) Those who refuse God's judgment and righteousness will have to face and reap their own judgment in the end.

To answer your question then
God does not have a penalty of death for sin. Instead death is the domain and power of sin and Satan. Jesus saves sinners from death and sin, not by dying as a substitute payment of penalty, but through the cross he defeated sin and him who holds the power of death that is Satan so as to set us free from fear of death. This enables faith so that we may cease to be afraid of God, so that we may come and be reconciled to God. He imparts to us life by imparting to us his Father's righteousness, which is eternal life. Forgiveness and mercy are eternal graces of God's righteousness of which we must be first recipients and partakers before we can be released from the condemnation of sin that is within us.

It is my hope that this may offer a glimpse of the scriptural perspective and definition. What do you hear?

Shalom

John, once again thank you for sharing. And please don't be frustrated with me because I'm not catching on quickly.

I am having a hard time giving up the unpopular idea that Jesus drank the cup of trembling for me and thereby earned the right to transfer my sin and second death upon the head of Satan. Also, I'm in a weird position since nobody that I know of agrees with my thoughts concerning sin and salvation. At least you have others who believe the same way as you do.

One thing that is difficult for me at this point is the idea that God will not punish sinners with death in the lake of fire. When I read about it in the Revelation I see God causing fire to rain down upon the insane throng of unsaved sinners, which is called the second death.

And all throughout the OT God ordained death as the punishment for sin. A brief perusal of the Levitical judicial system reflects the intimate relationship between sin and death and punishment.

Also, in the beginning when God promised - Obey and live, disobey and die - I find a connection between sin and death and punishment. The promise to bless and curse obedience and disobedience is a strong argument in favor of the relationship between sin and death and punishment.

I think it goes without saying that God is not willing that any should perish, and that He is doing everything He possibly can to save us from eternal death, but I don't see how this conflicts with the idea of God punishing the impenitent in the lake of fire at the end of time.

If death is the natural consequences of sin, or the capricious domain of the Devil, then why did God have to prevent mankind from eating the fruit of the tree of life? If death is the inevitable, inescapable product of sin, why worry about the tree of life?

Okay, can you please explain the judicial system implemented by God during the rule and reign of Israel? And, can you explain the lake of fire at the end of time?

Thank you Mike. Did you take a good look at the section 'visiting the iniquity' in my last post. The way you are commenting is as if you missed it. If you give it some consideration, you might realize how serious and disastrous it can be if God were to visit the righteousness of the sinner upon him. Perhaps the problem lies in not realizing how sinful fallen man's righteousness is, that is how wicked and deadly. A sinner certainly has problems seeing that because he avoids judgment like the plague. But God has provided for a glimpse of it in the summary of the commandments; "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Please give it some thought. So much of religion is based on fear.

In the situation with David and Nathan, David would have been a dead man had God visited him according to his (David's) judgment, not to speak about David's principle of killing Uriah in order to solve a sin problem. The question is not that God does not effect the judgment and the fulfillment of it. I have never said that, sorry if I was not clear. He certainly has and shall, and there is a definite need for God to bring every work into judgment, because the sinner would never of himself subject himself to his own judgment. That is the nature of sin, it avoids judgment and lives by lust. But the realization Mike is in the fact that what transpires is not God's righteousness applied, but the sinner's righteousness applied. If you realize the meaning of that, then you will understand truly why it is necessary for us to be saved from our righteousness and to receive God's righteousness that we may live. On the other hand failure to realize this leaves us with the inevitable position that Christ saves us from God's righteousness (judgment/penalty) and covers us with his blood (shed in payment), so that God's righteousness/judgment cannot harm us any more. We can throw in the transfer of our sins to Satan for good measure, so that God can still exact his penalty upon our sins on him.

You say you are alone in the unpopular idea that Jesus drank the cup of trembling for us. You know saying it in those words I agree with you that he did indeed. But what I know is the cup of trembling (being subjected to the power of Satan, and Satan being permitted to afflict his mind with his view of God) and what you have said it is, are two different things. I do not know that you are alone in your view, as I know of millions who are holding the same principles of substitute penalty payment, though not necessarily the same technical transaction, such as he died versus he suffered. The principle is the same; it is still penalty, regardless of how you expiate it.

You said: "I think it goes without saying that God is not willing that any should perish, and that He is doing everything He possibly can to save us from eternal death, but I don't see how this conflicts with the idea of God punishing the impenitent in the lake of fire at the end of time." If we understand the word punishing as above in 'visiting' there is no problem and no conflict. But however if it is a punishment/penalty of God's righteousness, and on top of that such a righteousness which cannot forgive the repentant ones, but had to exact it upon Christ as substitute, and is only satisfied in the shedding of blood; there is problems and conflicts irreconcilable. Then the problem is not with us but with him.

I have in my last post set aside this temporal death as immaterial to the question of punishment/penalty in salvation. It is obvious that you feel it is material, and that the temporal death is at least part of the penalty/punishment. Since I have previously commented on this, this time I would like to ask you how you consider let's say the death of Stephen. Is it part of punishment/penalty? If yes, how? If not, what is it? How about Peter, James and so on?

Your question: "If death is the natural consequences of sin, or the capricious domain of the Devil, then why did God have to prevent mankind from eating the fruit of the tree of life? If death is the inevitable, inescapable product of sin, why worry about the tree of life?" has mostly been already answered above; because sinner's avoid judgment God must impose it. But before imposing it God saw it prudent to limit/allow the domain and space of Sin and Satan to TIME rather than Eternity. This is the physical level. And in this space of TIME he works to save. This is the spiritual level. You are mixing both levels in your question.

I believe the lake of fire is explained above, and the judicial system of Israel is likewise covered in principle, for more we can cover later after I hear your thoughts here.

Shalom

[ November 04, 2002, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

John

I reread your thoughts on "visiting the iniquity" and I think I got confused over the idea you presented regarding our tendency to avoid judgment and the way you refer to sin as our righteousness. I guess you use common words in an uncommon way and that has me scratching my head.

It sounds like you're saying God has to step in and administer judgment because we are unwilling to do it ourselves. Does God ever capitulate like that? I thought He was more proactive. What good would it accomplish if I were to judge myself? How would that help settle the great controversy? Setting myself on fire would require judgment too, wouldn't it?

The death of Stephen and people murdered during random acts of violence, etc., are the results of sinners killing people. Like people who die of old age because God doesn't allow them access to the tree of life, so too all other forms of death can be laid at the feet of God because He did not intervene to prevent it. He doesn't cause it, but neither does He prevent it. That's culpable malfeasance.

Talking about "our righteousness" what is your take on these verses:

Rev 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

5T.144.001
Men professing to have new light, claiming to be reformers, will have great influence over a certain class who are convinced of the heresies that exist in the present age and who are not satisfied with the spiritual condition of the churches.

With true, honest hearts, these desire to see a change for the better, a coming up to a higher standard.

If the faithful servants of Christ would present the truth, pure and unadulterated, to this class, they would accept it, and purify themselves by obeying it.

But Satan, ever vigilant, sets upon the track of these inquiring souls.

Someone making high profession as a reformer comes to them, as Satan came to Christ disguised as an angel of light, and draws them still further from the path of right.

Thank you David for the advice. and thank you Mike for your post

You asked:

quote:

---

It sounds like you're saying God has to step in and administer judgment because we are unwilling to do it ourselves. Does God ever capitulate like that? I thought He was more proactive. What good would it accomplish if I were to judge myself? How would that help settle the great controversy? Setting myself on fire would require judgment too, wouldn't it?

---

1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The section on Judgment in the previous post should help in understanding. The graphic example of David and Nathan covers all the aspects of the question. We first see the way that sin operates. Lust is the governing factor, then corrupt judgment seeks to cover-up the sin. Finding failure, corrupt judgment proceeds to look for ways to avoid the results, concluding into more evil. After having 'solved' the problem, David does not seem to be bothered any more. About 1 year passes, Nathan 'visits', call to judgment. David unwittingly passes judgment upon himself. God is justified. David is condemned. If this were where it ended, the execution would follow. However the following realisation by David of his own sin, corruption of judgment, and sin-righteousness which 'slew' him, is where many fall short. David's judgment is returned unto truth. Many in such instances are unable to lay hold of repentance and forgiveness. But David realises that his only hope is in God's truthful judgment/mercy becoming his.

Psalm 51:
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Does this clarify?

Your statement:

quote:

---

The death of Stephen and people murdered during random acts of violence, etc., are the results of sinners killing people. Like people who die of old age because God doesn't allow them access to the tree of life, so too all other forms of death can be laid at the feet of God because He did not intervene to prevent it. He doesn't cause it, but neither does He prevent it. That's culpable malfeasance.

---

Mike I am very sad to hear you speak like this. The scriptures and God's children know no such thinking. What you are trying to accomplish by saying that? What is the purpose of making God culpable of these deaths? What is the meaning of this charge against God? Is God supposed to clear his name of this? Is that truth in judgment?

Stephen is of a different mind, he is sharing in his Father's mind, being a partaker of the Lord's suffering, for he is praying that God would not lay it to their charge.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Far be it that our Father should be culpable, but rather the sinner is guilty of raising his hand against God. David realises: Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight. The Lord said unto Cain: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Far be it that our Father should be culpable, but rather he suffers along with us. Our heavenly Father suffers long and forbears the iniquity and sin. He bears and suffers it.

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Son of God bore our sins. We smote him. He suffered our iniquity. We gave him lashes, oppressed and afflicted him. He opened not his mouth. We brought him as a lamb to the slaughter. He opened not his mouth. We wagged our tongues at him. He reviled not. In Him is the instruction of peace and if we receive it then with his stripes we are healed!

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
1 Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

All of God's children are partakers with the Lord in his sufferings

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
1 Corinthians 4:12 …being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

God, willing to show and reveal wrath (the work of sin) for what it is, and at the same time to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the rebellious children (vessels of wrath fitted to destruction). So that he might make known the riches of his glory on those that are of faith (vessels of mercy), which he had purposed unto glory,

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Ephesians 2:3-9 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy …

It is my prayer Mike that none should remain a vessel of wrath (a rebellious child, filled with wrath/sin-righteousness), but that all should come to God and be made merciful. That all may obtain mercy and grace and become vessels of mercy. A vessel is something that is made for the purpose of containing something. Do we understand what we contain by nature? Do we understand what we may exchange our contents for? May the Lord cleanse our vessels of all wrath, and fill us with his grace.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In this manner we shall be clothed with his righteousness, such fine linen, such grace, such glory, such light

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

It is indeed our privilege and salvation to be partakers of his glory and righteousness. Christ said: John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; In the counsel to Laodicea Christ counsels us to buy of him white raiment. He also says that he stands at the door and is waiting to be let in.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Shalom

John, I thought you might misunderstand my thoughts on culpability. Sorry about that. I believe God is either directly or indirectly responsible for everything that happens throughout the universe.

The moment God chose to create free moral agents is the moment sin and death became inevitable. His choices were to create and deal with sin and death OR not to create and not deal with sin and death.

Because He chose to create He is now forced to deal with sin and death. Foreknowledge allowed for no other outcome. He couldn't hope it wouldn't happen. It was inevitable. He didn't make it happen, but by making free moral agents sin and death was inescapable.

The fact He chose to create free moral agents, who were destined to sin and die, makes God indirectly responsible for the existence of sin and death. If He had chosen not to create, there would be no sin and death. And if He refused to sustain the life of sinners, there would be no sin and death. Again, God does not cause sinners to sin, but He is indirectly responsible for the existence of sin and death.

Why God chose to create in the first place, knowing full well that they would sin, is a mystery to me. Perhaps the joy of spending eternity with loved ones offset the sadness of 6000 years of sin and death?

Since God is responsible for the existence of sin and death, He must also take responsibility for eliminating sin and death. He cannot allow this important work to fall into the wrong hands, i.e., sin, self or Satan. Only then could we trust God throughout eternity.

The imputed righteousness of Jesus accommodates sins confessed and forsaken, and sins committed unwittingly. But the imparted righteousness of Jesus is real righteousness. It is who we really are. It's not something we wear externally. We are righteous even as He is righteous.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I am not implying you don't already believe this. Nor am I suggesting that we should go around drawing attention to our Christlikeness. We must always point people to Jesus and His righteousness.

We have now arrived at the root of your thought Mike. There seems to be one aspect fairly clear, that of predestination. You said:

quote:

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The fact He chose to create free moral agents, who were destined to sin and die, makes God indirectly responsible for the existence of sin and death.

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This seems to answer why your thought has been pulling that route all along. I agree with you that if God had created anything that were destined to sin and die; he certainly would be responsible for it's doing so. However that would also mean that there is no such a thing as: a free moral agent, salvation, forgiveness, grace, mercy, love, sin, lies, truth, death. I can go on and on. Everything becomes unreal and impossible. In such a concept you can stage anything you wish to be the solution to something that does not exist.

You may not like me calling it predestination, but that is what it amounts to. Sin was not inevitable, nor was it inescapable, it was not even probable, it was only possible. The level of culpability (of God) equals the level of predestination. Where there is no predestination, there is no culpability.

Either one is a free moral agent or one is a robot destined to malfunction. The idea of a free moral agent that is destined to sin is self-defeating. One has to be free morally in order to be able to sin. One that is destined to sin cannot be free morally; therefore such cannot sin. The following thought is likely the perpetrator of this confused concept:

quote:

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"Foreknowledge allowed for no other outcome".

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This type of idea of Omniscience has been confused and distorted to serve the purpose of Satan. The nature of the foreknowledge espoused serves to remove responsibility from the "free moral agent", or otherwise declares that such is not free, therefore is not responsible even as you have so stated. Again in all this, sin is impossibility and everything else is nonsense. Make-believe games.

When a free moral agent is created, no amount of Foreknowledge or Omniscience can destine/foreknow the morality of such a being. Foreknowledge may know all the variables, and it is precisely the variables that establish the level of the 'freedom' that such a moral agent has. Where there is no variable there is no freedom. A foreknowledge that 'knows' the choice that a free moral agent will make establishes the fact that the agent was not free to choose, and therefore was not a free moral agent, and the idea of choice is illusionary.

Sin is not necessary; the moment it would be necessary it would not be sin. Sin is entirely unreasonable; the moment it would be reasonable it would not be sin. Sin is departure from reason and judgment unto lust.

The truth is that when God created free moral agents, everything was made good. Propensity to evil was not there. Without trammeling the freedom, everything was 'weighted and stacked' to promote good. Such was shown/taught what is good, was provided with good, and when necessary was warned of the evil. They were created in faith with faith and placed in a setting of faith. Faith is very reasonable. It is very reasonable to trust him who gave us life.

The kingdom of heaven is established upon faith. Morality is based on faith. Without faith morality cannot exist. Without faith relationships cannot exist. Without faith everything is but a mechanical interaction. God himself lives in faith. Faith is greater than all knowledge, and Love is the crown of faith. God created (with all wisdom) in faith. He knew the variables and was willing and ready to look after the worst of them. But by no means was any creation destined to sin. The truth is they were 'destined' to become sons of God. This was the purpose for which God created them and purposed them to become. As you can see the use of 'destined' here allows for freedom of exercise of faith and choice.

Ephesians 1:3-5,9-11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God is ever working before and since sin to this purpose and this end, that his created moral agents should become the sons of God.

When God gave freedom, he gave responsibility. Where there is responsibility given there is also accountability. We did not give the responsibility to God, He gave it to us. He did not leave us alone in our responsibility. He established faith to be the connection between him and us so that all our responsibility would be fully met. By faith we had at our disposal all of heaven. By faith every power, virtue, knowledge, truth, ability, and so on was ours, and all our responsibility was infinitely provided for. In order to fail in our responsibility of sound judgment and truth in judgment, and to allow lust to rule, we needed to break faith, which was an unreasonable act. That is translated, it would have to be an intentionally purposed act of doing that, which is not sound judgment. We had the ability to do that. That is where the responsibility lay on our part: to be faithful. God requires truth in the inward parts. In falling from faith, judgment was turned unto lies. We also lost the freedom and became slaves; slaves of a corrupt judgment and a corrupt righteousness.

But God who is gracious in judgment and truth has not left us to destruction, but for the great love wherewith he loved us and the purpose which he purposed for us has done great and marvelous things to save us. That our judgment may return unto truth. That faith may be established so that the fulfillment of his purpose for us may be accomplished. That his free moral agents; created in his image, may become sons of God through the faith of the Son of God.

Eph 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We fell from truth in judgment and faith through the hearing of lies. We are now saved through the hearing of faith: the faith of the Son of God.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Shalom

[ November 11, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]