From the quotations below, I dont think that "jesus trod the winepress alone" just means "God's wrath" . That is surely part of it, but He bore many burdens alone that none other could bare or feel because of the nature of them:

Chapter Title: Unutterable Loneliness
Through childhood, youth, and manhood, Jesus walked alone. In His purity and His faithfulness, He trod the winepress alone, and of the people there was none with Him. He carried the awful weight of responsibility for the salvation of men. He knew that unless there was a decided change in the principles and purposes of the human race, all would be lost. This was the burden of His soul, and none could appreciate the weight that rested upon Him.

Throughout His life His mother and His brothers did not comprehend His mission. Even His disciples did not understand Him. He had dwelt in eternal light, as one with God, but His life on earth must be spent in solitude. As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and woe. The Sinless One must feel the shame of sin. The peace lover must dwell with strife, the truth must abide with falsehood, purity with vileness. Every sin, every discord, every defiling lust that transgression had brought, was torture to His spirit. Alone He must tread the path; alone He must bear the burden. Upon Him who had laid off His glory and accepted the weakness of humanity the redemption of the world must rest.


God's Amazing Grace, page 179, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: So Costly--and Yet Free
For sinful men, the highest consolation, the greatest cause of rejoicing, is that Heaven has given Jesus to be the sinner's Saviour. . . . He offered to go over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell; to meet the tempter on the field of battle, and conquer him in man's behalf. Behold Him in the wilderness of temptation. Forty days and forty nights He fasted, enduring the fiercest assaults of the powers of darkness. He trod the "winepress alone; and of the people there was none with" Him (Isa. 63:3). It was not for Himself, but that He might break the chain that held the human race in slavery to Satan.

When my brother studied the sanctuary doctrine he found something about the oil in the sanctuary. I cant remember much about it but he said something like that the olive had to be "beaten" to make the oil as a symbolic thing about Jesus beaten. It meant that a person starts as himself and then submits to have every bit of "Self" "squeezed" out of him... till it becomes holy oil for a whole other purpose... to be used for God's purposes.

This is kind of like trodding the winepress...

I dont know if this is right, but I just remember that conversation from a long time ago about the oil.

Right on, Claudia!

Jesus trod the winepress alone, not because of any wrath of God, but because of, in a sense, the wrath of man, and also, obviously, of the devil.

The very first chapter of the gospel of John says it all.

quote:

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John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

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He was all alone, for He was the sinless One, who had come to save His people from their sins.

David wrote:

"Your quotes from Ellen White are interesting. Do you know where to back up the above portion of your post I have quoted from the Bible?

Also, if Jesus trod the winepress [of God's wrath] since He was born; how can we accept what was brought out in this thread that Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God till

a) Gesthemane
b) Golgotha (Calvary)

It seems to me that the deck is short a card or two here? What do you think?"

David, again I would cite the texts I have already posted previously to substantiate the fact Jesus bore the burden of our sin, shame and guilt from the moment He was born. The EGW quotes make it possible for me to confidently believe this is true.

Ellen White used the expression "trodding the wine press alone" in many different ways. But the ultimate demonstration came when Jesus experienced the wrath of God against the sin He had been bearing in His body since birth.

Daryl wrote:

"Jesus trod the winepress alone, not because of any wrath of God, but because of, in a sense, the wrath of man, and also, obviously, of the devil."

Daryl, do the following quotes agree with this idea.

Matthew 27:46
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The Faith I Live By, page 101, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin
Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God--it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God.

[ March 09, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Claudia, the same idea applies to grapes and grape juice. Like olives grapes must be pressed to extract the juice. That's what test, trial and temptation is all about. The squeezing process. But I look at it slightly differently than most people do. I believe the oil and the juice symbolize the love of God, the righteousness of Christ.

I believe the squeezing process, which releases the oil or the juice, illustrates the revelation of Christ's righteousness in our life. In other words, the love of God in our life is revealed when we are tempted, tested and tried, as opposed to saying the oil or juice is unknown sin being squeezed out of us during test, trial and temptation.

David, good point about the wine press mentioned in Revelation 14. It just goes to show that the same illustration can symbolize opposite truths. Like leaven - it symbolizes both sin and righteousness. See Mat 13:33 and 16:6. Thus, the context determines what the wine press and juice symbolizes.

Also, the wine press and blood of the marked followers of Babylon in Revelation 14 happens when Jesus returns, therefore, it is not referring to the lake of fire after the millennium, which is when they experience the wrath of God against sin.

Quote by Mike:

“David

Good point re the wine press mentioned in Revelation 14. It just goes to show that the same illustration can symbolize opposite truths. Like leaven - it symbolizes both sin and righteousness. See Mat 13:33 and 16:6. Thus, the context determines what the wine press and juice symbolizes. “ - end of quote

Mike :

Here are the texts you have referred to above:

Mat. 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Mat.16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mike:

Your insinuations by the above comments and scripture are really abstract at best. While the two texts you supplied do show us that “leaven” can be used in two different ways; they utterly fail to make even one relevant point regarding the winepress of God’s wrath in Rev. 14, or how this winepress is also used to denote righteousness of God. In what way does Rev.14 need “context?” The text is so clear; it says “the winepress of GOD’S WRATH.” Can you at least show us where the Bible verifies your statement re a couple of posts ago about how the winepress, as used in Rev.14, also denotes “an opposite truth?” If the word “winepress” in Rev.14 were all by itself, and did not have the phrase “of God’s wrath” attached to it; you might be a bit closer to making a relevant point…But even then, there would be unanswered questions.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Also, the wine press and blood of the marked followers of Babylon in Revelation 14 happens when Jesus returns, therefore, it is not referring to the lake of fire after the millennium, which is when they experience the wrath of God against sin.

---

Mike

The text in Revelation 14 is specific, and clear. It says "the winepress OF GOD'S WRATH."

Therefore, how can you say "God's wrath was not experienced then?"

We find agreement that this "winepress of God's wrath" occurs at Christ's second coming; but would that really prove God's real wrath was only felt by anyone "in the Lake of fire," as you appear to be suggesting?

I am having trouble grasping any solid Bible explanation for why it is so important to you to try and prove that Jesus did not suffer God's wrath until Calvary, and why you feel it so imperative to refute the fact that God's wrath, against sin, could have happened at a number of different points before the lake of fire culmination of His wrath…I see the context of the lake of fire wrath as a culmination of God’s wrath, denoting therefore, a process of God’s wrath, (manifestations of), before the Lake Of Fire.

Maybe, we are getting all the different "wraths" in the Bible mixed up?

In addition to "the wrath of God," the Bible also speaks about "the wrath of man which worketh not the righteousness of God," (James 1:20). Did Jesus suffer this wrath? If so, when, how? Which Bible texts tell us about it?

Are you perhaps thinking that if God’s wrath ocurred too soon in the plan of salvation, before the cross, or before the lake of fire, that it would then be unjust somehow?

The Bible tells us that God’s wrath is always just. Whenever it occurs in this life – before the end of the millenium. (see Rom.3:5).

And in our daily lives, the Bible cautions us to “leave room for God’s wrath.” (Rom.12:19). God chooses to “show His wrath,” as a way to “make His powers known,” and He has consistently done this throughout the ages. (Rom.9:22).

“The wrath of God” is also coming in the future, as you had mentioned. (Col.3:6).
And thanks be to God for “His unspeakable gift,” and that His Jesus – our Jesus, is the One who rescues us all from this impending and dramatic fulfillment of God’s wrath.” (see 1 Thes.1:10). Rev.14:10 calls it “the full strength” of His wrath. Did Jesus bear the “full strength” of God’s wrath on Calvary, or in Gesthemane, as another poster here had said earlier? How is it possible that Jesus suffered “the full strength,” of God’s wrath,” if “the full strength didn’t happen till the Lake Of Fire? Did Jesus really “bear our sins,” if He did not suffer “the full strength” of God’s wrath? Is “bearing our sin” the same as bearing “the full strength” of God’s wrath?

The final manifestation of God’s wrath, actually comes from BOTH God and Jesus, His Son:

Rev.6: 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What are we to think regarding “the wrath of God,” as it relates to Jesus “bearing our sin?”

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I hope I do not mix up this topic too much by introducing one other type of wrath that the Bible speaks about. It is the wrath of the devil himself:

Rev.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

In Summary:

1/ Did Jesus bear “the wrath of man?” (James 1:20).
2/ Did Jesus bear the “great wrath” of Satan? (Rev.12:10-12).
3/ Did Jesus bear “the great winepress of God’s wrath?” (Rev.14: 19)

4/ Is Jesus “bearing our sin” the same as Him bearing any or all of the above wraths?

I have asked you these questions several times now; did I miss the answers?

Which Bible texts can you supply to answer the above?

I noticed that The Spirit of Prophecy has some interesting things to say re Jesus bearing our sins “in His own body on the tree:”

RH.1903-03-17.017
Remember that Christ is our only hope, our only refuge. He "bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness." "If the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

ST.1898-12-08.012
In the light and assurance of His Word, and through His atoning sacrifice, we may see how God can vindicate His justice. He opens our eyes to behold His holiness in its true luster, and yet justifies the sinner who comes to Him by Christ. In the pardon given to the dying thief, it was made manifest that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree. He bore our griefs and sorrows. That heart of human and divine love was exercised for the relief of the woes of the world.

ST.1903-06-17.001
We can not understand the mystery of redemption. It is enough for us to know that God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son to die for us. The penalty of our transgression fell upon a pure, holy, innocent Substitute, even the Son of God. He bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we might at last stand before God clothed in the robe of sinlessness.
ST.1903-06-17.002
The Gospel is the hope of the world. The cross is God's agency for counterworking Satan's plans, and restoring man to his original purity. The plan of salvation devised by the Father and the Son will be a grand success. Christ's atoning sacrifice will arouse the sluggish mind, quickening into activity man's mental and spiritual powers.

It appears that by His bearing of “our sins on the tree;” that Jesus affected a change in sinful humans, who are open to His call: namely “the robe of sinlessnes.”

Any gospel about Jesus bearing our sins in His own body on the cross,” that falls short of the ensuing restoration of the helpless, sinful human agent; is anti-christ:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

David, great post. Whew! There's alot to think about. Thank you. I'm sorry my F.D. Nichol (he wrote the SDA "Answers to Objections") approach to understanding one symbolic passage by citing the similarities of another symbol - was utterly and absolutely useless to you. Better luck next time, eh?

I like how you introduced the many ways the Bible incorporates the concept of wrath. I believe Jesus experienced the wrath of man, Satan and God throughout His earthly sojourn. And yes, there are types and degrees of God's wrath mentioned in the Bible, and Jesus no doubt encountered every type of God's wrath possible by the time He died on the Cross.

But I also believe the ultimate expression of God's wrath will be fulfilled during the eradication of sin and sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time, after the millennium. I also believe Jesus endured this specific form of wrath on our behalf beginning in Gethsemane and ending on Golgotha. He drank the "cup of trembling" - God's unmingled wrath.

The winepress of God's wrath mentioned in Rev 14 is not the same thing as drinking the cup of trembling. See Isaiah 51:17-23 below. When Jesus returns the unsaved will merely melt in the presence of His glory and brightness. See Zech 14:12 and 2 Thes 2:8 below. They suffer the first death not the second death at this time.

But after the millennium the unsaved will not only suffer physically but also psychologically, which is drinking the cup of trembling, the cup of God's ultimate and unmingled wrath. They will experience, for the first and last time, the undiluted guilt and shame associated with their life of sin (the second death), and the awful realization they have forfeited eternal life with sweet Jesus.

Eternal separation from God is the ultimate wrath of God. Jesus experienced this separation for us in advance beginning in Gethsemane and ending on the Cross. The unsaved will suffer this same wrath of separation, and all the physical and mental agony that goes with it, as they are perishing in the lake of fire.

Isaiah 51:17-23
17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. 18 There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. 19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee? 20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the LORD, the rebuke of thy God. 21 Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: 22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: 23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Zech 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Thes 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: