Hello Mike

Thanks for explaining your views more...I can see better where you are coming from.

Let me quote briefly something you just touched on:

"But after the millennium the unsaved will not only suffer physically but also psychologically, which is drinking the cup of trembling, the cup of God's ultimate and unmingled wrath."

Did Jesus also suffer this same wrath, (unmingled), on Calvary? If so, what Scripture do we use to show this?

Also, in what way is "bearing our sins in His own body on the tree" related to the "unmingled" cup of His wrath?

David, I believe it was because Jesus bore our sins in His sinful flesh nature that He was also able to finish experiencing drinking the cup of God's unmingled wrath on the Tree. He began drinking the cup in Gethsemane and He finished it on Calvary. He drained the cup dry and then He cried, It is finished. He conquered sin and the second death before He died the first death. He accomplished the work of redemption while He was still alive. See EGW quotes below.

Mat 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

Mat 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

John 18:11
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The Desire of Ages, page 759, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: "It Is Finished"
All heaven and the unfallen worlds had been witnesses to the controversy. With what intense interest did they follow the closing scenes of the conflict. They beheld the Saviour enter the garden of Gethsemane, His soul bowed down with the horror of a great darkness. They heard His bitter cry, "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." Matt. 26:39. As the Father's presence was withdrawn, they saw Him sorrowful with a bitterness of sorrow exceeding that of the last great struggle with death. The bloody sweat was forced from His pores, and fell in drops upon the ground. Thrice the prayer for deliverance was wrung from His lips. Heaven could no longer endure the sight, and a messenger of comfort was sent to the Son of God.

The Desire of Ages, page 758, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: "It Is Finished"
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost.

The Desire of Ages, page 758, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: "It Is Finished"
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

The Desire of Ages, page 753, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Calvary
Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

The Desire of Ages, page 753, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Calvary
Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.

The Desire of Ages, page 753, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Calvary
In that thick darkness God's presence was hidden. He makes darkness His pavilion, and conceals His glory from human eyes. God and His holy angels were beside the cross. The Father was with His Son. Yet His presence was not revealed. Had His glory flashed forth from the cloud, every human beholder would have been destroyed. And in that dreadful hour Christ was not to be comforted with the Father's presence. He trod the wine press alone, and of the people there was none with Him.

Ellen White on Salvation
A Chronological Study by Woodrow W. Whidden II

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/wws/salv07.htm

The Moral Influence Theory

This theory has in recent years grown in popularity among Seventh-day Adventists. In fact, this view has become so compelling for many that they have tried to make it the dominant, controlling view in Ellen White's presentations on the atonement.

The moral influence advocates lay great emphasis on Christ's death as a manifestation of God's love to a lost world. In its most extreme form it has been proclaimed that Christ's death as a requirement of God's justice (Christ's death satisfying divine justice) was not necessary. These advocates hold that Christ's death was given only to demonstrate God's love, which emanates in "moral influence" to an alienated world.

What are we to make of this theory?

It is certainly true that Ellen White saw the cross as the supreme manifestation of God's love. There are elements of loving moral influence that are communicated both to sinners and the unfallen beings of the universe: "Through the cross, man was drawn to God," and the sinner "was drawn from the stronghold of sin." The "cross speaks . . . to worlds unfallen . . . of His great love wherewith He has loved us" and "is the unanswerable argument as to the changeless character of the law of Jehovah" (7aBC 470, 471).

But the cross speaks of more than mercy. Among other things, it also speaks of a powerful condemnation of sin by the "holy love of a holy God" (Guy 10). Ellen White's comments make it clear that "moral influence" was always connected with this convicting holiness of God, not just some general expression of forgiving love that excludes the "satisfaction" of divine justice.

At the risk of being repetitious, let us get the point of God's holiness clear in our minds: The merciful "moral influence" of Christ's atoning death is beyond question, but such manifestations of "influential" love came through God's holy justice, not to its exclusion! Expressions of God's love are always based on both divine justice and mercy (not on mercy alone).

At this point it is important for us to ask What is "wrath"? It seems that what makes the more extreme forms of the moral influence theory attractive are the unsavory connotations that go along with God's justice being expressed as wrath. The word "wrath" seems to conjure up visions of God losing His temper, giving sinners "the back of His hand," suggesting that He gets some retaliatory, tit-for-tat satisfaction out of destroying sinners.

But Ellen White's view of God's wrath is that He must finally act to put an end to those who reject His offers of a just mercy. In the writings of Ellen White there are just too many indications of God's active wrath to say that He is too merciful to destroy sinners actively.

Now, there are certainly statements to the effect that sin is self-destructive (GC 35, 36). And sin is manifestly self-destructive. But let us pursue Ellen White's treatment of the theme of God's justice a bit further.

Is it not a fact that God is the source of all life? Is it not His restraining power over the forces of evil that gives us protection? Furthermore, is not God the one who temporarily grants self-destructing sinners life in probationary time? I do believe the answers are obvious.

Now let us go a step further. Doesn't it seem that God would be just as surely responsible for the death of sinners by withdrawing His life-giving power as He would be in directly destroying them by the fires of hell?

Since God is the source of all life, it is quite apparent that He is also ultimately the one who allows death! And whether such death is actively brought on or passively allowed really makes no difference if one wants to lift the ultimate responsibility for the death of sinners from God. The really definitive question is not whether God's justice is active or passive, but whether it is just and consistent with His character of merciful love.

Another nettlesome question rears its wondering head: Was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah simply the chance circumstance of an unfortunate conspiracy of atmospheric conditions (Gen. 19:24)? Ellen White says, "The Lord rained brimstone and fire out of heaven" (PP 162). Again, was the judgment of God on Korah, Dathan, and Abiram only a tragic yawning of a long dormant seismic geological fault line in the Sinai desert (Num. 16:23-35)? Ellen White calls this judgment "the signal manifestation of God's power" (ibid. 401). Or were the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira only timely coronaries (Acts 5:1ff.)? Ellen White refers to their deaths as "the signal manifestation of the wrath of God" (AA 73) and goes on to say that "the same God who punished them, today condemns all falsehood" (ibid. 76). Will the lake of fire be merely a passive act on God's part? Referring to the lake of fire, Ellen White says that "God is to the wicked a consuming fire" (GC 673).

Was divine wrath manifested at the cross? Yes, what about the cross? Was it or was it not a manifestation of God's holy wrath against sin?

If the plain, straightforward words of Ellen White mean anything, the following challenge needs to be squarely faced: Any well-meaning person who feels that the moral influence theory cancels out the substitutionary theory of atonement as a manifestation of God's wrath against sin needs to be prepared to rip the chapter "Calvary" out of The Desire of Ages. I realize that my challenge is a bit shocking, but sometimes words are just too plain to be ignored!

Please carefully note the following citations from this climactic chapter of Ellen White's most spiritual work:

"Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. . . . The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. . . . Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. . . .

"Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God" (753; italics supplied).

"He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself" (756; italics supplied).

And is God's wrath active or passive? In addition to these forcefully clear statements, Ellen White makes it abundantly evident that there is precious little emphasis on God's passive justice.

"Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon" (7aBC 470; italics supplied).

"As Christ bore the sins of every transgressor so the sinner who will not believe in Christ as his personal Saviour . . . will bear the penalty of his transgression" (ibid. 471).

Is there any substantive difference between pulling a plug on somebody's life-support system and switching on the "juice" to an electric chair? Again, I believe the answer is self-evident! For Ellen White, our God is love, but His love is expressed actively in justice, not just passively. He is certainly our "friendly" and neighborly "God," * but He is more than just some benignantly concerned neighbor poignantly beckoning over the back fence and pleading with us to knock off the foolishness of our romp in the fields of sin. He is also the Holy God who has acted and will once again act in just wrath against the rejecters of His merciful offer of redemption. Again there are too many references to God's active execution of justice to say that justice is merely a passive "letting us go."

And then there is that matter of salvation and God's wrath. What does all this have to say about salvation? I would suggest that the redemptive message of God is this: Our rejection of His offer of life through the justifying merits of Christ's death will mean our eternal death. Without Christ's substitutionary death, sinners will receive just retribution.

Let me sum it up: It is God's just love, not some cheap, mushy mercy, that saves from eternal death.

The wages of sin is the second death. But the plan of salvation prevents us from experiencing this reality and the true force of sin, shame and guilt. Thus, it is not evident in our daily lives that sin is the source of all suffering, unrest and unhappiness. The undiluted results of sin has been temporarily suspended until the lake of fire.

In order to compensate for this problem inherent in the plan of salvation God became sin for us and demonstrated the true hideous nature of sin in the life of Jesus Christ. Especially on the cross of Calvary did Jesus expose the undiluted results of sin. Now, by beholding Christ and Him crucified, we can see for ourselves what would be our state if we were allowed to experience the true force of sin the moment we sin.

God made it possible for us to see sin in all of its hideousness, without having to die the second death, so that we can be motivated to trust Jesus with our lives and to set us free from sin. His life and death makes it possible for us to hate sin and to crave Christ and His righteousness. But the suffering and death of Jesus accomplishes more than merely helping us hate sin, it also paid the penalty for our sins. He paid the price of death for our sins so we can be pardoned and rewarded with eternal life.

Jesus earned the right to own our sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death. As the lawful owner of the keys of hell and of death it rests with Jesus to eliminate our sin and second death in the lake of fire. This He will accomplish when He transfers our sins upon the head of Satan, who will perish with them in the lake of fire. Once the flames of hell fire have purified the earth from all traces of sin Jesus will recreate it anew. And we shall live happily ever after. Amen. Thank you Jesus.

Now I want to repeat Daryl’s question: (Dec.8th, end of page 7)

Have we figured out yet what did Jesus bear on the cross? The Scriptures seem so clear and simple on this matter; yet we have torn this beautiful doctrine of 1Pet.2:24 into unusable shreds of personal opinions, out of context quotes, and biased outlooks. Not one person has tried to approach unity on this subject; and inspite of reading this whole thread through twice; I have no idea what the point of it is.

1T.333.003
God will open the eyes of honest souls to understand the cruel work of those who scatter and divide. He will mark those who cause divisions, that every honest one may escape from Satan's snare.

Questions that have NOT been answered here:

Is God a murderer? Look at how sinners must all finally perish in the end. Why do we call a killer God a loving God? The wages of sin is death. To whom could such a debt ever be “paid?” To a blood-letting heavenly Father? To Satan? Who is the “debt” owed to that we can never pay? What really happened on Calvary? Is there a short, simple way to reconcile Biblically, the seemingly opposite characteristics of God’s great love and mercy, with His justice? Is it fair that God would “punish” Jesus for something He didn’t do? To punish someone who “knew no sin?” Did Christ’s death on the cross somehow give God license to suddenly switch from “wrath” to mercy?

Did Jesus have to convince God to forgive us? Does God’s attitude about us “sinners” need to be changed somehow before we can be “saved?” Does not God sit around frowning down on our failures; eagerly awaiting the deep-fry of “hell fire” to finally rid the world of all it’s filth and sin? Is it hell-fire, (God’s wrath), that rids the world of sin?

The Bible calls God's destruction of the wicked His "strange act". Not at all according to the true nature of a loving God.

I think Genesis 3:14, 15 and John 3:16, 17 in particular, as well as Romans 5:8 demonstrates God's love for His rebellious world.

quote:

---

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

John 3:16/b] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[b]17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

---

Then there are verses that deals with God's justice which also has been shown in the above verses which is why Christ had to die for us.

David, would you please take a minute or two to share your own answers to the many questions you asked? Then I will be happy to respond to them. I believe the wrath of God is love, but I cannot explain why or how. I trust and believe that my attitude toward the wrath of God is and will be the same as the holy angels:

Rev 16:5-7
And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.