Permit me to suggest some answers to the perplexing questions asked above. First of all, let me suggest that the "wrath of God" may be an idiomatic expression which has nothing to do with either God or His emotions (just like "acts of God" in you insurance policy have nothing to do with either God or His activity). Just reading through the references to "wrath" from the concordance makes that clear to me. It's not clear what the expression does mean, however.

Second, just as today, the ancients attributed anything they didn't understand, good or bad, to the workings of God. If you examine those stories in which God supposedly destroyed some nation or city, an alternate explanation can be found for virtually every one of them. Consider, for instance, the final fire. Look what's happening in Baghdad right now, tonight. Many of those same people with those same weapons will be in the crowd surrounding the New Jerusalem. And they will have had an unknown amount of time to develop or dig up and reactivate the old ones before they make that final assault. PLUS atomic weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, and who knows what the antediluviens might have developed. When they launch those weapons on the Holy City and the weapons bounce off the force field God sets around the city, where do you think they will go? Obviously, they could start a conflagration that involves the whole Earth! That would be a hell of a fire (pun intended).

So permit me to suggest that it is SIN which destroys, not God. Or as Romans 6:23 states, it is sin which causes death, God brings life.

Bob Lee

SAN.1900-01-01.019
Whether rich or poor, we must never forget that the poverty of Christ was part of His legacy to humanity. It was not alone His betrayal in the garden or His agony upon the cross that constituted the atonement. The humiliation of which His poverty formed a part was included in His great sacrifice. The whole series of sorrows which compassed humanity Christ bore upon His divine soul.

13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa.52:13-53:12).

Boblee, where do we draw the line at spiritualizing the word of God? "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev 20:9. What is it about the wording in this text that gives you the idea it's talking about bombs bouncing off a force shield and falling back upon the wicked and killing them in a lake of fire?

If we cannot read God's word literally then what is real? What's to stop me from spiritualizing the wording of the second coming and the new earth? "The kingdom of God is at hand." Mat 4:17. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21 Thus, there is no literal coming or heaven?

David, do you have time to answer the questions you posted? I am very interested in pursuing them with you.

Greetings everyone,

Well I see a fair amount of discussion in the last three weeks.

David you raised some very valid points. It is true that the original question really has not been answered or dealt with, the question of 'did Christ bear our sin/guilt'. I would like to correct this failure on my part.

As we see from all the discussion here, that predominantly this topic in the minds of many means penalty, exaction, wrath of God being exercised upon Christ as a substitute for us, and that such satisfies God's justice and enables him to forgive us. That is where the problem is.

Now to the question. YES, indeed he did bear our sin/guilt. But unlike the above concept, it means something rather different.

Yes, he did bear our sins in his body from the beginning of his birth, for the scripture testifies;

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

It appears from what I have read in this forum that we are agreed that he did indeed bear our sins.

For what purpose did he bear our sin?

• that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
• that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
• so that he is able to succour them that are tempted
• that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
• condemned sin in the flesh:

But the next part is where there is much confusion. There is not one scripture that teaches that the wrath of God was upon Christ, nor that God's justice was satisfied/appeased, nor our penalty exacted on him.

Mike, all the scripture you quoted shows the wrath of God that the unrighteous must suffer, but it in no wise intimates that such was ever upon Christ. The testimony is to the contrary.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah plainly states that man will think that it was the wrath of God, BUT he negates it and says that it is not!

Why was it that he suffered Gethsemane and Golgotha?

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Luke 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Hebrews 2:14 …that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

We see here that it was the grace of God by which he tasted death and not the wrath of God.

This is brief but hopefully it can clarify the original question.

Boblee, I understand what you are saying, but we cannot do away with the wrath of God. This however is not understood as to what it means. We will need to come back to this topic.

Mike, I agree that we must not and cannot spiritualize the word of God away, but we must not infer it saying what it does not say either.

• Where does the scripture say that the wrath of God was upon Christ?
• Where did a hand of God come down from heaven to crucify him?
• Who did judge him worthy of death?
• Who said " We have a law, and by our law he ought to die"
• Who beat him?
• Who stuck the crown of thorns on his brow?
• Who impaled him?
• Who was the spirit of that crowd?
• How have we then turned it around to mean the wrath of God? Who is this God?
• Is that not another form of spiritualizing away our (fallen man's, satan's) doings?
• Can we do that on the basis of God allowing it to be?

If you can do the one, you can do the other.

No, we cannot ascribe what man does, to God, nor can we ascribe what God does, to man?

There needs to be a clean and clear distinction between the works of God and the works of darkness, between the spirit of this world and the spirit of God.

So to summarize it,

1. Yes, Christ bore/suffered our sin/guilt. We need to understand what that means.
2. Christ's death overthrew the power of Satan, sin and death. We need to understand what that means.
3. No, he did not suffer the wrath of God, but rather was the outworking of the grace of God.

I hope we can address these points meaningfully.

Shalom

John, can you please answer the post on page 9 on 3-20-03 11:30 am. Thank you.

Well Mike that was your post. I see you bringing forward two major thoughts.

One,

quote:

---

Now let us go a step further. Doesn't it seem that God would be just as surely responsible for the death of sinners by withdrawing His life-giving power as He would be in directly destroying them by the fires of hell?

Since God is the source of all life, it is quite apparent that He is also ultimately the one who allows death! And whether such death is actively brought on or passively allowed really makes no difference if one wants to lift the ultimate responsibility for the death of sinners from God. The really definitive question is not whether God's justice is active or passive, but whether it is just and consistent with His character of merciful love

---

No, Mike this thinking is not sound. It negates the freedom and responsibilities that God gave man, whom he created in the image of God.

There is a great difference between the fact that God can prevent, can undo, can resurrect, can save, and that of laying on him the responsibility for the actions of someone else, who acted contrary to God’s will.

The commandment, ‘thou shalt not kill’ would be meaningless in your perspective. It is obvious that God gave the ability and responsibility of doing so.

We know that there comes a day when God will set things right, restore wrong. In the meantime he bids us to suffer it to be so now. A season of time has been given to the power of darkness/sin, and permitted its work. The account thereof will be required from the doers. In the meantime God suffers (longsuffering) it to be so now, and he bids us do the same. This is just and consistent with His character of merciful love.

Two,
Your quotations from EGW,DA, which are being used to establish your thought on the penalty, wrath of God being exercised on Christ.

Mike, the fact that there is no scripture teaching this, should question your understanding of what you read in DA. The way those quotes have been used (by so many, for so long a time) in an overwhelming way is entirely out of context and purpose. By God’s grace we will be able to see why this has been so, and to see the simple truth behind it.

Permit me a little folly. The scripture says: “there is no God”. Doesn’t it? Shall we leave it at that? There is no confusion in that statement, is there? It is simple. It is hard to misunderstand it. Is it truth? No! Why? Because of who says it? The scripture says it! It was a psalm of David. Surely it is reliable! Yet surely you will agree with me that it is not truth! Why? Because the setting of this statement establishes that ‘it is the fool that said it’.

Mike, you probably do not see it, but the same applies to your quotations from the DA. I invite you to check it out and pay special attention to the setting of whose thoughts, whose ideas these are being presented. I may suggest to begin with the chapter on Gethsemane.

Shalom

John, do you truly believe Ellen White supports the idea Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God on the cross? the wrath of God meaning giving up sinners to suffer the undiluted guilt and shame associated with their sins during intense physical and emotional agony. As you know, death is the end of their suffering, and as such is the end of sin and sinners.

Well Mike, your definition of the ‘wrath of God’ has taken a fair turn. That is good. We need to realize a few more things and call it by it’s right name and then we will have a clean and clear distinction between the works of God and the works of darkness, between the spirit of this world and the spirit of God.

So I would like to ask you, that which was exercised upon Christ from Gethsemane to the death on Golgotha, was it the work of God or the work of darkness?

John, it was the work of the evil one, but The Father willed that Jesus die on the cross.
--Ðøug