Greetings to all,

I am sorry that the summary post is taking longer, but it is coming soon, and will answer the question as to what purpose Jesus' life and death served.

The death of Christ has nothing to do with enabling God to grant us probationary time. Time was given in the longsuffering of God, first to Lucifer, then his followers, and then to fallen man. To give time is part of God's justice. The truth is that Christ's coming and dying has tremendously shortened the time needed for the issues of sin and salvation to be resolved.

The casting out of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, has nothing to do with penalty, but has to do with sound judgment and reality. Even so as Lucifer was denied the authority of his position, once he broke faith with God; in the same manner man was denied the privilege of access to the garden and its benefits after the fall. "The wages of sin is death." Which death? Why? And how? Yes, these are good questions to ask. We hope that they will be clarified soon.

It is not in God's purpose to either penalize sinners, or to promote sin, but that all should come to repentance. Therefore, their authority and position of service is removed from them. Time is given for them to sort themselves out and come to their senses.

In God's kingdom the one that is greatest is he that is the greatest servant. Thus one's position is dictated by one's service. The nature of sin is such that it is self-seeking. It seeks to manipulate, exercise authority over, and use others for it's own purposes. God cannot condone such activity under his umbrella of Government. Thus all such loose their place and authority in his kingdom by default. They come under God's longsuffering service of mercy to them. They who served now need to be served. However Satan complicated the matter by professing that what he was doing is for the benefit of the universe and that God was penalizing him. This confused the issues.

Shalom

I had proposed a summary of the plan of Salvation. It is indeed difficult to summarize something on which there is no consensus, as the meanings of words and thoughts are differing. I hope the following may serve to give meaning.

• The fundamental element of righteousness is faith, which is result of and results in sound judgment in truth. He that lives in faith lives in reality and thus recognizes the true nature of God and his character, the true place for one self, and the true place of others.

• The fundamental element of sin is the breaking of faith, which is result of and results in untrue judgment. That is a false view of reality, first about God, second one self, and last others. Everything else (disobedience, accusations, covetousness) is but simply the result of this.

Condition before sin
When God created, whether it be angels or man, he created them 'good'. None were ever destined to sin. Indeed they were destined to become sons of God (that is, not only by creation but also by birth). What is that 'good' wherein he created them? Faith establishes the fact that there is goodwill between one another. Without goodwill there can be no faith.

"In the image of God created he them". While each beast was created with various instincts of function, man and angels were created judicial beings. One of the meanings of the title 'God' is 'Judge'.

In this environment faith was natural, faith/trust in God (God's judgment) was way of life. Everyone grew in knowledge and wisdom with God and their fellow. There were no accusations and everyone worked in harmony. Love is the definition of this life. Each was living in the light of God's grace.

Since Faith and trust is a freewill and goodwill act, God knew that it is possible that some may choose to break faith/trust. God did not foreknow that any would sin but he knew that any could sin, and he was prepared and willing to deal with it.


Sin and the problem
As it is written, Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Ezek. 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:

Sin began in heaven with Lucifer. He broke his faith/trust relationship with God by thinking of himself more highly than he ought. While sin did begin with Lucifer in heaven, it could have been anyone else. The magnitude of his position however made the problem more difficult.


Truth vs. Lies
Lucifer made himself the point of reference, thus everything began to be interpreted through his own eyes. God was standing in his way. God did not agree with him, therefore he was not fair. Lucifer was going to prove that he is right and that God is wrong. Indeed, he was going to show the whole universe what true freedom is, and he would set heaven on a higher pinnacle. He promoted that creation was not free since they all were looking/trusting to God. In this manner they were all restricted to what God gave them. If they looked/trusted to themselves they would indeed be free, he promoted. There would be a lot more creativity by which heaven would benefit, he proposed. So he made himself his own source, not realizing 'the way of life' and the proper use of his powers and abilities.

As Satan departed from truth in judgement to following after his desires and ambitions, God counseled with him and told him that his way was wrong. Satan now had a problem. He had to deal with what God had told him. Since his desires were to the contrary, he set about to justify himself and accuse God. Thus he discovered guilt and fear. Each time God counseled with him and warned him, Satan, instead of receiving the counsel, justified himself and multiplied his guilt and fear. Since he saw God through his own eyes he began seeing him as vengeful and exacting. He did not understand that guilt is result of being unfaithful in judgement, and fear the result of selfish desire. Satan blamed God for all his guilt and fears. He soon developed such an image of God and his righteousness as befitted his guilt and fears. When God warned that such way is death, he interpreted that God would kill him.

In this manner Satan began misrepresenting God to the universe. He represented God's righteousness and character as something that it was not. It was his version of God.

He declared that God could not forgive and be just. This is because Lucifer could not repent. He could not repent because he would not believe God, hence he could not see that he was wrong, hence he could not repent and thus could not see forgiveness. His own idea of justice/righteousness prevented him from receiving that which he desired. However finding this (his own) righteousness unforgiving, he blamed God for it and declared that God was such.

He declared that God is prejudiced and favoritises. This is because unlike himself, there were others that believed God and thus were able to repent and receive forgiveness, and were set free from their error. To Satan this was nothing but favoritism and he began about the business of finding fault and accusing in order to prove himself right and God wrong. This is the path of self-justification. Even when he did realize a degree of his wrong and proposed to repent, he did so without restoring faith, without believing God. He found that God had no respect to his "repentance". After such he resolved himself fully that God was unfair. This in reality proved that his repentance was not repentance, and that he did not restore his faith in God's judgment.

He declared that God is partial and biased. He alleged that Christ was only faithful because that God had favored him so. If God were to favor Lucifer in the same way, he would certainly be faithful too. But since Lucifer was in such disfavor with God, how could he have faith? Let Christ be in my place and we'll see how much faith he will have, was his challenge.

He declared that God's requirements were unattainable, therefore unfair. This is because he would not believe God, and without faith it is impossible to please God. Thus by making himself the reference of truth for all his judgments, he declared that God was such as he deemed him to be.

He declared that penalty must be exacted upon fallen man. Lucifer viewed himself under a penalty of death. It was his hope and purpose to take man hostage. He gambled on God's 'love for man'. In his mind he figured that because he is not being forgiven, God may not forgive man. If he forgives man then he also must forgive him and his followers, or else it is not fair. Naturally every hostage taker hopes to obtain his ransom, and not to meet the same fate as they threaten their hostages with.

In summary, in all his efforts Lucifer was completely at odds with God's justice. He promoted a justice, which never had existed. A negative form of justice.


Salvation from Sin & Lies
It was necessary to reveal the truth about God, that the darkness, which Satan spread, might be dispelled. It was necessary to bring judgement unto truth. To release from bondage those that were kept in the dungeon of fear. To open the eyes of those that were made blind with lies. To reveal that the goodness of God is greater than sin, that his mercy endures forever, and that his forgiveness is greater than guilt.

God's justice does not allow oppression to rule. He would not leave those who are being held as hostages to be used as such. Instead he sets every man free and gives each the opportunity to establish faith.

Satan's insinuations and misrepresentation of God's government, law, justice, forgiveness, mercy needed to be answered. Heaven needed to see that God's government was not such as Satan portrayed it to be. The universe needed to see that God does not have penalties, that he is not partial, that his bidding is not unreasonable, much less impossible. To reveal to the universe that God is merciful and that he can and does forgive iniquity, transgression, and sin. That indeed in this is the very heart of justice. That his mercy and forgiveness are not partial, but that they are distinctly and positively only possible to be realized under specific conditions, the which anyone may attain to (the broken and contrite heart). To see this takes time, and God was willing to suffer it to be so. More than that, he was willing to suffer unrighteousness and injustice, until every judicious being had opportunity to see the issues and choose whether to restore faith or not.

My ways are not your ways
The Universe needed to be brought back to the position where judgment in truth was returned unto faithfulness. This could only be done by the revelation of truth and reality and not by means which Satan used. Accusations, set-up artistry and insinuations were not possible for the king of life to use. God would not accuse Lucifer, he would not go around and spread 'counter-propaganda'. God loved Lucifer just as much as he loved man or any other being he created in the image of God. God's purpose is to return judgment unto truth (this cannot be done with malice, but can only be done with goodwill) so that every judicious being may freely choose whether to restore faith or not.


Cost of Salvation
Satan's challenges needed to be answered, in order for the truth to be established.

Satan's challenge of partiality needed to be answered by Christ. To answer this challenge was a horrific proposal and it was not undertaken lightly. The longsuffering heart of the Father was to suffer immeasurably, the Son was to suffer under the power of the enemy; only thus could the challenge be answered and it be revealed what the Son's faithfulness is based on and what the Father's favor is.

But this was not the only thing that would be accomplished. In one simple living the whole facade of sin would be swept aside. Christ would reveal that it is the glory of God to forgive. He would reveal that God's requirements are not only attainable, but that they make one free and raise him in glory. He would silence the accuser by subjecting himself under his power, allowing Satan to impose upon him his view of God, thus effectively being put in Satan's position (and even lower, for he came as a man, lower than the angels) yet triumphing in faith over that darkness.

Satan was allowed the ultimate that he can do. As he assailed upon Christ with the darkness of his mind, his views about God, his character, and his righteousness; he supported these by inducing every physical and circumstantial element that he could muster, even unto death. After that he could do no more. It was revealed that faithfulness is not based on the blessings/favors that God bestows, but upon judgment in truth of the Father's character.

Christ's life and death silenced every accusation, for he was faithful and obedient unto death (and not because he was favored) and the angels of heaven declared worthy, worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive power and glory and honor. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name, which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Satan was cast out of heaven, and there was no more room found for him in heaven. The accuser was cast out; none will listen to him any more. In heaven, judgment has returned unto truth in every judicial being, and the prince of this world has been judged. God's judgment is not questioned any more in heaven.

Only on this earth, Satan still has sympathizers. On this earth, Satan still has many that hold his views of God. There are many that agree with him and partake of his spirit. To what purpose? They gather wrath to themselves against the day of wrath. Many will discover that the Christ they held to save them from the wrath of God is not there. When once the master has closed the door, and they begin to knock outside. They have not gone in and become part of God's Glory.


For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
It was revealed that forgiveness is not an unjust favor. It is the glory of God to forgive. Forgiveness is that element of God's glory that every judicial being must possess in order to be able to be a faithful judicial being in goodwill. Forgiveness is the restoration of the judicial being to faith and true judgment, which brings forth repentance and restores the original image of God (a faithful judicial being in goodwill). Here the mind of sin; (the unbelieving, unfaithful judgment) along with it's guilt, accusations and fear have been crucified.

It was revealed that mercy is not unmerited favor. Mercy is that element of God's glory that every judicial being must possess in order to be able to be a faithful judicial being in goodwill. It is that very aspect of God's glory that must enter the poor, guilty, accused and accusing sinner, that he may himself be set free, and that he may set others free from that bondage.

It was revealed that the goodness of God leads to repentance.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Every fallen being is held in captivity (darkness) by fear. Fear is the ruling element of Satan. Satan keeps people afraid of God. When the goodness of God is realized, then the sinner comes to repentance

I will break here and see if there is any understanding

Shalom

After you have read the above, here is one statement that is very simple!?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

However the reality of it is that it is among the most abused and misunderstood statements; not because there is anything wrong with the statement, but because the blindness of sin along with professed religion establishes all kind of false interpretations of it.

For God so loved
What does that mean? What picture of the 'so loved' do people have?

that he gave his only begotten Son
What does that mean? What does it mean 'he gave'? Why did he need to give? Give to whom?

that whosoever believeth in him
What does that mean? What does it mean to believe in him?

should not perish
Why should one perish? What is the problem? What is the cause of perishing? What about believing saves one from perishing?

But have everlasting life
What is this everlasting life? Why does one not have this life? What does believing have to do with everlasting life?


Shalom

Hi Mike, In response to your direct question...I don’t profess to have the complete story on this but I’m constrained to accept the scripture on these points:

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Heb 2:14 .... that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1 John 3:8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works.

Other scriptures (some examples below) are usually taken to support Christ’s death as a payment for sin to the Father.

2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God our Father.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood
1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I expect that in the understanding of these scriptures is where the two views on this question differ.

Christ came to destroy the power of evil and to redeem us from it’s bondage. He bore with the evil/sin of this world until it killed him. After this the challenge of enemy no longer had any credibility. Christ’s life made it clear that Satan’s kingdom would ultimately destroy all goodness and purity if left unchecked.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth shall draw all men unto me.

His life sheds light on the path we are to walk….in faith and trust in God.

Of course there's more but I'll stop here

dw

John and Don, I've been away on business since last week. I'll have some time to continue this duscussion later on. God bless.

John, thank you for sharing your thoughts on sin and salvation. I agree that sin creates a gulf between the sinner and God. But I also believe the "wages" of sin is death. Earlier I asked the question - Which death? Genesis 3:22 makes it clear that death is not the natural consequences of sin. It was possible to live "for ever" in a sinful state eating the fruit of the tree of life.

The wages of sin is, therefore, referring to something other than cause and effect results. The reason we die the first death is because we do not have access to the tree of life. And if simply dying the first death satisfied the just and loving demands of the broken law then there would be no reason for the second resurrection and the subsequent punishment in the lake of fire.

The purpose of the second resurrection (and the third in some cases) is to execute justice. Very obviously the first death does not serve to satisfy justice. Otherwise, why not leave them where they lay? Which is a good and necessary question to answer in light of God's law, love and character.

The first death is not the wages of sin. We do not and cannot pay the penalty for our sins in this lifetime. Why? Because Jesus paid the penalty for us! But the blood of Jesus does not justify unpardoned sinners after the close of probation. Thus, the only way the unsaved can pay the penalty for their sins is to be raised in the second resurrection.

If the second death is no different than the first death then why bother resurrecting the unsaved to die again? Since they clearly do not serve the same purpose it is necessary to discern how and why they are different. I submit the difference has to do with punishment.

Lamentations
3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

4:22 The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.

Ezekiel
14:10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh [unto him];

Matthew
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Hebrews
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

God must necessarily punish those who refuse the salvation of Jesus Christ, wrought out on the cross for them at such great cost. "All they that hate me love death." Proverbs 8:36. To allow sin to go unpunished is to condone sin itself. No one is innocent who clings to sin. They are guilty of crucifying Christ afresh. They are murderers.

God must punish sinners and eliminate sin in the lake of fire. If He doesn't then we shall forever doubt the promise - Sin shall not arise a second time. See Nahum 1:9. If sin and sinners are supposed to self-destruct in the lake of fire, while God stands by hopelessly lamenting the loss, whose to say they won't change their minds and demand a retrial?

And if God isn't actively involved in the destruction of sin and sinners then how do we account for the way angels and holy beings praise Him for it?

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Mike, Thank you for your post, but we seem to have missed the point.

I have purposely stopped in my summary and have not proceeded to the end time destruction of the wicked. Because that is not the reason that Christ came. The reason he came is to find and save that which is lost. The work of God was in the longsuffering of God. As I said before, I repeat. The correlation of the wrath of God (work of God) at the end of time and the death of the Savior is entirely amiss.

Mike you cannot take what God will do at the end of time and say that he did it upon Christ. That is completely at cross-purposes. Nowhere does the scripture teach such a thought. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn him either. The work upon Christ at the cross was that of Satan. It was not the wrath of God.

I know that you believe that the 'penalty for sin' is death, and that such is your understanding of the 'wages of sin' is death. We are not dealing here with the 'wages of sin'. We are dealing here with why Christ came, lived and died; more specifically 'Did he bear our sin and guilt, and what that means'. You can understand the true meaning of 'wages of sin' only after the true meaning of salvation is realized. I have shown you from all your quotations and scripture that it was not the work of God that was upon Christ from Gethsemane to the cross.

Only as one truly understands the salvation that Christ came to bring to us, will one understand what the 'wages of sin is death' means. Only as one understands God's work and is able to separate that from Satan's work will he begin to understand the issues. As long as one ascribes Satan's work to God; as long as one calls darkness light, how can he expect to know the truth.

Sin not only creates a gulf between the sinner and God; it creates enmity. The enmity is not on God's part; it is on the sinner's part. It is the sinner that becomes an enemy of God and not God that becomes the enemy of the sinner. Christ came to bring us salvation from that enmity, from sin. These issues are spiritual.

Mike, do you agree with my summary, but think there is more; or do you disagree with what is there?

Your preposition regarding the tree of life and our loss of access to it, makes your outlook primarily physical and secondarily, spiritual. That creates such a false view of the problem even so that the spiritual can never be accomplished. It establishes a justice that has nothing to do with God, and then creates a salvation from it. Thus the problem of sin still remains. And Christ who came to save us from sin is instead being used to save us from a fictitious penalty and a justice that does not exist. Thus the problem of sin still remains!

The scriptures you quoted in your last post re 'punishment' deal with those that reject the salvation from sin. They have nothing to do with God's work of salvation from sin.

Shalom

Here is a few more scriptures Donovan.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Isaiah 49:24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
Isaiah 49:25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luke 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Shalom

John, I appreciate your emphasis on the nature of God's redemptive love as demonstrated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, and God forbid that I should underestimate it. Truly one of the most important things we can learn from God's love is that it sets us free to serve Him with our whole being. Thank you Jesus.

But it's not the only thing we can learn from God's love. The wrath of God is love. It was first displayed when Satan and his followers were cast out of Heaven. It was seen again when Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden. And again and again at the Flood, Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Egyptians, Cananites, Nineveh, etc. When the cup of iniquity is full God does not hesitate to pour out His wrath.

Upon the cross of Calvary Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God as a sinless saint. He suffered the fate of hopeless sinners, the same fate of those who must perish in the lake of fire. This wrath was unmixed with mercy. It was poured out upon Jesus in full strength. He felt the awful weight of God's wrath toward sin and hopeless sinners, as though He was guilty of the unpardonable sin, as though He despised the love of God, and as though He loved sin more than righteousness and salvation.

I realize you believe these ideas and insights are heretical and that they misrepresent the wrath of God. I am sorry, but I cannot believe otherwise. I do not agree with how you interpret the Bible and SOP quotes I shared earlier. I believe Jesus suffered the wrath of God in the same way I would have suffered in the lake of fire. He came to take my place, to pay the penalty for my sin, to deliver me from the lake of fire.

Yes, He also came to show me how to have faith in my heavenly Father, so that I can experience His love and goodness, so that the Holy Spirit can empower me to live without sinning, so that I can honor and glorify Him. All these things are true and awesome. But they do not take away from the fact that Jesus took my place in the lake of fire.

I deserve to die eternally because I have sinned and come short of the glory of God. In fact, none of the human race deserved to be born because our first parents should have died in the day they ate the forbidden fruit. But the plan of salvation gave us and God probationary time to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. To reject Jesus is accept the death penalty for sinning.

Given everything God has done to save us from sin and the second death - if we reject Jesus we deserve to die the most horrible of all deaths. To sin in the face of salvation, which cost God so much, is to crucify Jesus afresh. Anybody who loves sin more than Jesus, anybody who carelessly crucifies Jesus daily, anybody who doesn't think twice about killing Jesus over and over again - deserves to punish in the lake of fire. A speedy, painless death is too good for them. It would be an insult to the love of God. And it would threaten the eternal security of the universe.

I am happy Mike that you agree that the 'love of God' (as I have presented it here) is redemptive and is demonstrated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, and that truly it is that that sets us free. I am also happy that you agree that the faith of the Son (as we partake of that faith) establishes in us the means whereby we can experience the reality of our Father's love and goodness. That such faith makes our heart his dwelling place so that he may dwell in us by his spirit, so that we may have his mind and heart and live his glory. This is eternal life.

This 'love of God' that is redemptive, and saves us from sin and death, has been further defined in the scriptures to be the fruit of his spirit and his glory. It is this glory that we have all come short of, but he has sent us his Son that he may restore us back to his glory.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Exodus 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by… 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth

Christ came into this world and suffered the 'sinner's mind' (sinner's view of God and righteousness) so that we may have 'his mind' (the Son's view of God and his righteousness).
Thus he bore our sin and guilt, our infirmities, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Thus he suffered the wrath of sinners that we might perceive the love of God, so that we may be called the children of God.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

This redemptive love of God then is the love of God that sent his Son into the world so that the world through him might be saved. It is this love that he lived (his Father living in him). It is to this love that Christ bore witness to. It is of this love that he preached the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. It is to this love of the kingdom of heaven that he calls us to.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is my prayer that all may enter into this faith and experience the love of God that saves and redeems a sinner and makes him a son.


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I am sorry that you still find the need to hold on to another kind of 'love of God' which is 'wrath of God' which is 'our guilt and shame'. That kind of 'love of God' has penalties, is not redemptive, does not save, and accuses and condemns. It should be evident that such was not the love of God that sent his Son into the world so that the world through him might be saved.

As the support for your thought in this matter is death, destruction and lake of fire, and not the first advent of Christ, his life and salvation, I have opened up a new topic for discussion called: "Wages of sin OR wages for sin!" I will be happy to discuss this topic there, and perhaps as we come to a resolution there we may return back here.

Shalom