Dear Mike and others,

I have previously stated and repeat myself that Christ did indeed bear our sin and guilt, but it was not the wrath of God. God is not the source of sin and guilt. It is not possible for God to do this work. It was Satan who imposed this upon Christ. It is only He who can be the source of sin and guilt. Christ was subjected to the power of darkness/Satan.

This is what Satan held the ransom out for. His hope was to overthrow Christ with his darkness. Christ suffered it but did not succumb to it, though Satan represented in the horror of that darkness that it was God hiimself who was doing this. Christ retained his Faith in God, he knew his Father differently, and commited himself to his Father. The essence of sin is distrust of God, Satan is the source of that distrust, and all that God does is interpreted in the most heinous way. The fact that God withdrew his light from Christ (which was neccessary to permit Satan his work, for darkness cannot be where there is light), Satan used that to say that God is against him and further insinuations about the righteusness of God. Christ felt all these, He was made to sense and suffer all this darkness. But it is of Satan and not of God.

There needs to be a clean and clear distinction between the works of God and the works of darkness, between the spirit of this world and the spirit of God.

1. Yes, Christ bore/suffered our sin/guilt. We need to understand what that means.
2. Christ's death overthrew the power of Satan, sin and death. We need to understand what that means.
3. No, he did not suffer the wrath of God, but rather was the outworking of the grace of God.

Whenever reading something consider the source. When temptations are being presented. Are they to be taken as truth from God. James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Below please find your quotations from EGW, I have added a few, They all testify to the truth of my statements. How do you read?

I have bolded the text, which is work of darkness, imposed upon Christ. Underlined bold tells you that it is the work of darkness. Underlined plain text is what Christ did. Italicised text is the work of the Father and heaven. The plain text is not considered irrelevant.

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Even doubts assailed the dying Son of God. He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Bright hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the tomb a conqueror and His Father's acceptance of His sacrifice. The sin of the world, with all its terribleness, was felt to the utmost by the Son of God. The displeasure of the Father for sin, and its penalty, which is death, were all that He could realize through this amazing darkness. He was tempted to fear that sin was so offensive in the sight of His Father that He could not be reconciled to His Son. The fierce temptation that His own Father had forever left Him caused that piercing cry from the cross: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" {2T 209.3}

Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them. Black despair, like the pall of death, will gather about their guilty souls,and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin. Salvation has been purchased for them by the suffering and death of the Son of God. It might be theirs, if they would accept of it willingly, gladly; but none are compelled to yield obedience to the law of God. If they refuse the heavenly benefit and choose the pleasures and deceitfulness of sin, they have their choice, and at the end receive their wages, which is the wrath of God and eternal death. They will be forever separated from the presence of Jesus, whose sacrifice they had despised. They will have lost a life of happiness and sacrificed eternal glory for the pleasures of sin for a season. {2T 210.1}

Faith and hope trembled in the expiring agonies of Christ because God had removed the assurance He had heretofore given His beloved Son of His approbation and acceptance. The Redeemer of the world then relied upon the evidences which had hitherto strengthened Him, that His Father accepted His labors and was pleased with His work. In His dying agony, as He yields up His precious life, He has by faith alone to trust in Him whom it has ever been His joy to obey. He is not cheered with clear, bright rays of hope on the right hand nor on the left. All is enshrouded in oppressive gloom. Amid the awful darkness which is felt by sympathizing nature, the Redeemer drains the mysterious cup even to its dregs. Denied even bright hope and confidence in the triumph which will be His in the future, He cries with a loud voice: "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit." He is acquainted with the character of His Father, with His justice, His mercy, and His great love, and in submission He drops into His hands. Amid the convulsions of nature are heard by the amazed spectators the dying words of the Man of Calvary. {2T 210.2}
Oh, was there ever suffering and sorrow like that endured by the dying Saviour! It was the sense of His Father's displeasure which made His cup so bitter. It was not bodily suffering which so quickly ended the life of Christ upon the cross. It was the crushing weight of the sins of the world, and a sense of His Father's wrath. The Father's glory and sustaining presence had left Him, and despair pressed its crushing weight of darkness upon Him and forced from His pale and quivering lips the anguished cry: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" {2T 209.1}

Jesus had united with the Father in making the world. Amid the agonizing sufferings of the Son of God, blind and deluded men alone remain unfeeling. The chief priests and elders revile God's dear Son while in His expiring agonies. Yet inanimate nature groans in sympathy with her bleeding, dying Author. The earth trembles. The sun refuses to behold the scene. The heavens gather blackness. Angels have witnessed the scene of suffering until they can look no longer, and hide their faces from the horrid sight. Christ is dying! He is in despair! His Father's approving smile is removed, and angels are not permitted to lighten the gloom of the terrible hour. They can only behold in amazement their loved Commander, the Majesty of heaven, suffering the penalty of man's transgression of the Father's law. {2T 209.2}

Nature sympathized with the suffering of its Author. The heaving earth, the rent rocks, proclaimed that it was the Son of God who died. There was a mighty earthquake. The veil of the temple was rent in twain. Terror seized the executioners and spectators as they beheld the sun veiled in darkness, and felt the earth shake beneath them, and saw and heard the rending of the rocks. The mocking and jeering of the chief priests and elders were hushed as Christ commended His spirit into the hands of His Father. The astonished throng began to withdraw and grope their way in the darkness to the city. They smote upon their breasts as they went and in terror, speaking scarcely above a whisper, said among themselves: "It is an innocent person that has been murdered. What if, indeed, He is, as He asserted, the Son of God?" {2T 211.1}

Jesus did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and exclaimed with His departing breath: "It is finished." Satan was then defeated. He knew that his kingdom was lost. Angels rejoiced as the words were uttered: "It is finished." The great plan of redemption, which was dependent on the death of Christ, had been thus far carried out. And there was joy in heaven that the sons of Adam could, through a life of obedience, be finally exalted to the throne of God. Oh, what love! What amazing love! that brought the Son of God to earth to be made sin for us, that we might be reconciled to God, and elevated to a life with Him in His mansions in glory. Oh, what is man, that such a price should be paid for his redemption! {2T 211.2}

When men and women can more fully comprehend the magnitude of the great sacrifice which was made by the Majesty of heaven in dying in man's stead, then will the plan of salvation be magnified, and reflections of Calvary will awaken tender, sacred, and lively emotions in the Christian's heart. Praises to God and the Lamb will be in their hearts and upon their lips. Pride and self-esteem cannot flourish in the hearts that keep fresh in memory the scenes of Calvary. This world will appear of but little value to those who appreciate the great price of man's redemption, the precious blood of God's dear Son. All the riches of the world are not of sufficient value to redeem one perishing soul. Who can measure the love Christ felt for a lost world as He hung upon the cross, suffering for the sins of guilty men? This love was immeasurable, infinite. {2T 212.1}

Christ has shown that His love was stronger than death. He was accomplishing man's salvation; and although He had the most fearful conflict with the powers of darkness, yet, amid it all, His love grew stronger and stronger. He endured the hiding of His Father's countenance, until He was led to exclaim in the bitterness of His soul: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" His arm brought salvation. The price was paid to purchase the redemption of man, when, in the last soul struggle, the blessed words were uttered which seemed to resound through creation: "It is finished." {2T 212.2}

As Christ felt His unity with the Father broken up, He feared that in His human nature He would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the powers of darkness. In the wilderness of temptation the destiny of the human race had been at stake. Christ was then conqueror. Now the tempter had come for the last fearful struggle. For this he had been preparing during the three years of Christ's ministry. Everything was at stake with him. If he failed here, his hope of mastery was lost; the kingdoms of the world would finally become Christ's; he himself would be overthrown and cast out. But if Christ could be overcome, the earth would become Satan's kingdom, and the human race would be forever in his power. With the issues of the conflict before Him, Christ's soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal. He would be identified with Satan's kingdom, and would nevermore be one with God. DA 686/687

But God suffered with His Son. Angels beheld the Saviour's agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin.
The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close. Satan and his confederacy of evil, the legions of apostasy, watched intently this great crisis in the work of redemption. The powers of good and evil waited to see what answer would come to Christ's thrice-repeated prayer. Angels had longed to bring relief to the divine sufferer, but this might not be. No way of escape was found for the Son of God. In this awful crisis, when everything was at stake, when the mysterious cup trembled in the hand of the sufferer, the heavens opened, a light shone forth amid the stormy darkness of the crisis hour, and the mighty angel who stands in God's presence, occupying the position from which Satan fell, came to the side of Christ. The angel came not to take the cup from Christ's hand, but to strengthen Him to drink it, with the assurance of the Father's love. He came to give power to the divine-human suppliant. He pointed Him to the open heavens, telling Him of the souls that would be saved as the result of His sufferings. He assured Him that His Father is greater and more powerful than Satan, that His death would result in the utter discomfiture of Satan, and that the kingdom of this world would be given to the saints of the Most High. He told Him that He would see of the travail of His soul, and be satisfied, for He would see a multitude of the human race saved, eternally saved.

Christ's agony did not cease, but His depression and discouragement left Him. The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury. He came forth calm and serene. A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face. He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man. DA 693

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Notice the difference between the thoughts of darkness and that light which the angel brought from the throne of God's presence. Do you not see the difference of what Satan’s thoughts would have been had he not fallen. Look at the great contrast between the darkness of Satan’s view of God and the angel’s that took his place. Which is truth?

Who is Christ battling with? Satan and his darkness, or his Father?

Shalom

Daryl, you're right - God will not take sick, sadistic pleasure in destroying sinners. None of the passages I quoted above teach we will take pleasure in the destruction of sinners. Rejoicing that God has eliminated sin and sinners in the lake of fire is not the same thing as taking pleasure in it. But you still haven't answered my question -

Daryl, which one of the following quotes gives you the impression the holy of heaven are not rejoicing over the punishment and destruction of sinners? And please provide the quote where it says the destruction of sinners, the strange act of God, is inconsistent with the love of God.

How can you have sympathy for those who despised the sacrifice of Jesus? How can you pity those who rejected the combined forces of heaven to serve the pleasures of sin for a season? How can you commiserate or show compassion for those who walked away from the beaten, bloody body of Jesus hanging on the cross of Calvary to pursue their own hedonistic selfish passions.

King David was reproved and reprimanded for mourning the death of Absalom. It was considered a capital offence, even treasonous, to mourn the loss of such an enemy of God. None of the following passages give any indication that the holy of heaven sympathize with the dying rejectors of God's golden grace. Would you lament the death of Osma bin Laden? or Saddam Hussien? Did you mourn the death of Hitler?

John wrote - "I have previously stated and repeat myself that Christ did indeed bear our sin and guilt, but it was not the wrath of God. God is not the source of sin and guilt. It is not possible for God to do this work. It was Satan who imposed this upon Christ. It is only He who can be the source of sin and guilt. Christ was subjected to the power of darkness/Satan."

John, I have never insinuated that God is the source of the sin, guilt and shame Jesus bore for us while on earth and on the Cross. The sin He bore for us was in His sinful flesh. But not until Gethsemane and the Cross did Jesus experience the wrath of God toward the sin He bore in His flesh for us. That's when Jesus felt the guilt and shame associated with the sin He bore in His flesh. The guilt and shame He felt was the result - not the cause - of the wrath of God He endured for us.

Satan has no power to cause Jesus or the unsaved at the end of time to suffer guilt and shame associated with sin. If the Devil were dead and gone the unsaved would suffer the wrath of God in exactly the same way. The existence of Satan has nothing to do with it. Yes, the Devil tempted Jesus to distrust the promises of God, but that had nothing to do with the guilt and shame He suffered as He endured the wrath of God. It was the separation and wrath of God that caused Jesus so much suffering.

What is about these two quotes that makes you think Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God like a guilty sinner facing death?

"Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them. Black despair, like the pall of death, will gather about their guilty souls, and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin."

"After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance."

Mike said,

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John, I have never insinuated that God is the source of the sin, guilt and shame Jesus bore for us while on earth and on the Cross. The sin He bore for us was in His sinful flesh. But not until Gethsemane and the Cross did Jesus experience the wrath of God toward the sin He bore in His flesh for us. That's when Jesus felt the guilt and shame associated with the sin He bore in His flesh. The guilt and shame He felt was the result - not the cause - of the wrath of God He endured for us.

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Mike, we need to make sense when we speak. Your proposition above is an impossible feat. It is your definition that the wrath of God = our guilt and shame. While this is a conundrum of language, it can but possibly have two sources; one is God, the other we. You have defined it to be the work of God, which means that the source is God. This is what you have been trying so hard to establish.

In your above statement in your first sentence you deny that God is the source of the guilt and shame and in your last sentence you said, "The guilt and shame He felt was the result … of the wrath of God He endured for us". There is no difference in God being the source, or God's wrath resulting in guilt and shame, when it comes to spiritual matters. And the whole point of your view is that Christ overcame God's wrath, which pits Christ against God. Mike can't you see how wrong this is?

The other source possible is the sin He bore in His sinful flesh from birth. Now while this makes him one with us in the temptations he experienced, it does not establish guilt or shame. In your last sentence above you agree that it is not the cause.

Guilt is a product of self-justification and shame that of pride. Very simply, neither God nor Christ have ever produced these.

Again your statement in this regard

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What Jesus experienced beginning in Gethsemane and ending on Golgotha was the wrath of God against the sin He inherited when He assumed Adam's fallen nature.

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Now since neither Christ nor we have any guilt or shame regarding the sinful flesh we inherit, it follows that such would have to be superimposed by someone else. You said it is from God, the wrath of God.

As I believe you now agree that it is not possible for God to produce guilt and shame, we must realize that the source is someone else, and Christ said very plainly that it was the work of darkness, the work of Satan. John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Mike only he who has such thoughts of God and guilt, could come and insinuate them on another.
Can you not grasp, that this thing you call the wrath of God is in reality the mind of Satan.

Here is a definition for thought; the mind of Satan = ultimate guilt and shame. Every sinner has partaken to an extent of his mind.


Mike said

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Satan has no power to cause Jesus or the unsaved at the end of time to suffer guilt and shame associated with sin. If the Devil were dead and gone the unsaved would suffer the wrath of God in exactly the same way. The existence of Satan has nothing to do with it.

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Partly wrong and partly right. Satan, as long as he is around, has as much power on his followers as he hath something in them. On the other hand it is true that the problem is not resolved by getting rid of Satan, for they have in themselves such equivalent portion as they have made their own. So each one according to their own measure.
And no, Satan will have no power over Christ. Christ has already overcome him.

Mike, the whole train of your thought in regards to the plan of salvation is misdirected. Did you give thought to what I wrote in the last few posts.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Shalom

P.S. I propose to lay out a summary of the plan of Salvation shortly.

Mike asked

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How can you have sympathy for those who despised the sacrifice of Jesus? How can you pity those who rejected the combined forces of heaven to serve the pleasures of sin for a season? How can you commiserate or show compassion for those who walked away from the beaten, bloody body of Jesus hanging on the cross of Calvary to pursue their own hedonistic selfish passions.

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It is for these that Christ prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Now Mike I know that our Father is Long-suffering and not forever-suffering, but you seem to have a strong desire for the wrath of God.

Remember that The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I think that the realization needs to settle in that the coming of the Messiah was in the long-suffering of God. That it was not an example of his wrath to come.

Shalom

Mike asked'

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What is about these two quotes that makes you think Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God like a guilty sinner facing death?

"Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them. Black despair, like the pall of death, will gather about their guilty souls, and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin."

"After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance."

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Satan is a guilty sinner. There is none other that has as much guilt as he. There is none other who sees God as a greater enemy/threat/fear. All his cogitation is self-justification, which only increases his guilt. His pride makes his shame so great. His accusations are merciless; therefore he can see no mercy. When Satan had his time of his power on Christ, it was but natural for him to project his mind upon Christ. Thus Christ felt much as sinners will feel, once the influence of God' spirit is withdrawn from them. A big difference however is that Christ had none of that in him, thus he committed himself to his Father. He had faith in his Father.

Shalom

John, when you get the chance can you please compare our two points of view. Thank you. I'm having a hard time following your line of reasoning.

Greetings,

Some of posts in this thread have been bewildering at times. I’ve been hesitant to jump in lest I drown in detail.

From what I’ve read in recent posts I believe that the main point of debate/question has changed from the original “Did Christ bear our sin/guilt” to “Did/Does Christ’s death pay the penalty for our sins to the Father”.

There is considerable ambivalence in SDA circles and indeed throughout all christendom regarding the character of God and the nature Christ’s mission on earth. Growing up in the SDA church I’ve heard talks and sermons that support both sides of this debate.

Two articles in the April-2003 issue of Sign of the Times give evidence to this. If you have access to the issue you might want to read the article “Your Friendly Judge” by Trudy Morgan-Cole. Trudy presents the case that the image we have of the Father “as an angry God who needs the spilled blood of his own son to restrain Him from wiping out the people he created” is an erroneous one. Trudy however avoids the issue of what such a statement does to the substitution doctrine.

This quarter’s SDA adult SS lesson focuses on the topic of forgiveness. It’s interesting that in the new testament (KJV) the word “guilt” appears 7 times while the word “forgiveness” appears 47 times. Why is it that the bible plainly, indeed emphatically, says that God forgives a repentant sinner yet we say that God demands blood?

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Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

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Paul takes pains to explain that the law cannot save us. Are we not insisting that it does save us by saying that God demands restitution or payment for all broken laws?

I well understand the argument that says that “though the Father loves us yet he must administer justice and satisfy the requirements of the law”. If the law is a complete “transcription of God’s character” where then is forgiveness.. where is mercy? I fail to see the mercy in a proxy torture arrangement which is what I believe the substitution doctrine amounts to.

In many countries the head-of-state has the power to pardon or commute a sentence for any crime. If a head-of-state were to release a person on death row and execute an innocent third party would you call this mercy or forgiveness? Totalitarian regimes have been known to administer this type of justice – most regard it as barbaric. Would most people be drawn in love to a person who administered this form of justice? I’m certain that many would not want live under such an authority.

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Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

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We can live with the Father in eternity not because he tolerates us by some technical satisfying of the law. The Father calls us to be with him. He sent his Son to make the way plain. John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you

Don W

Don, welcome to MSDAOL. Your comments suggest you favor the moral influence theory. If Jesus did not die in order to satisfy the just claims of the broken law and in order to grant us a probationary time to accept or reject God's love - then what purpose did Jesus' life and death serve?

"The wages of sin is death." Which death? Why? And how? According to the Bible sinners would have lived for ever had God not denied them access to the tree of life.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.