Here's another quote to consider in light of this study. It says Jesus stepped between the wrath of God and man to save him from the sentence of the death pronounced upon him by God on account of sin.

1. The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man's Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.4}

God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. Satan flattered himself that he had forever broken the link between heaven and earth. But in this he was greatly mistaken and disappointed. The Father had given the world into the hands of His Son for Him to redeem from the curse and the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall. Through Christ alone can man now find access to God. And through Christ alone will the Lord hold communication with man. {Con 20.1}

Mike, you have successfully proven (what I have stated in my first post here) that the religion of today believes, attests to, teaches and contends for the fact that Christ saves man from God. Christ is the one that restrains the Father from executing us. Christ is the one who absorbs the Father's wrath. Christ redeems us from the Father. The Sinner must hide behind Christ to be safe from God. That man needed a refuge from God. That if we believe Christ we can be safe from God. That reconciliation was impossible for God would no longer talk with man. That Satan flatters himself (takes the credit) for having successfully caused God to be like that.

(Though you did not mention in it in your post.) That the problem was still not resolved on Calvary, but the wrath of God still hangs over man for Christ still today has to plead with the Father on behalf of the sinner, "my blood, my blood" so that he would "spare" them. God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. (Who is to say that God will ever change his mind, for he is a God that changes not?)


What shall we say to these things; if God is against us, who can be for us.
And who shall be able to separate us from the wrath of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


No sinner can ever be reconciled to God with this view of God, and Satan exults because he has successfully created a gulf between man and God. Christ came to reveal to us that the Father is the opposite of that.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you.

Shalom

[ May 25, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

John, please don't fault me for the EGW quote I shared above. But I do not see a contradiction between what she wrote and the scriptures you posted. The plan of salvation delays the wrath of God while the love of Jesus displays the love of God. Wrath and love are inseparable. God does not have to change His mind in order to save us from His wrath. He has promised to save us from His wrath in Christ. Probation is part of the package. We have nothing to fear if we comply with the conditions of salvation. And we have every reason to fear the wrath of God if we don't.

I can't remember whether or not the following text was used previously, however, it seems to be very clear to me:

quote:

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1 Peter 2:24 Who his (referring to Christ) own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree (referring to the Cross of Calvary), that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

---

The above verse tells me that, YES, Christ did bare our sins in His own body on the Cross.

If anybody thinks they can dispute this text, I would like to know how!

Is it ok if I agree with you?

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed[b]. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; [b]for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hi Darryl and Lobo, yes we are agreed about that. Back on page nine of this thread I brought that out, I quote

quote:

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Yes, he did bear our sins in his body from the beginning of his birth, for the scripture testifies;

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

It appears from what I have read in this forum that we are agreed that he did indeed bear our sins.

For what purpose did he bear our sin?

• that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
• that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
• so that he is able to succour them that are tempted
• that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
• condemned sin in the flesh:

But the next part is where there is much confusion. There is not one scripture that teaches that the wrath of God was upon Christ, nor that God's justice was satisfied/appeased, nor our penalty exacted on him.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah plainly states that man will think that it was the wrath of God, BUT he negates it and says that it is not!

---

Shalom

Jesus began bearing our sin in His sinful flesh from conception. He suffered being tempted by His fallen flesh nature. But He did not begin experiencing the penalty for our sin until He began drinking the cup of God's wrath in Gethsemane. He conquered the second death on our behalf when He drained the dregs of the cup on Calvary and cried - It is finished. Contrary to popular belief Jesus did not die the second death on the cross, instead He tasted and defeated it on our behalf. It is the scapegoat (Satan) who dies the second death with our sins in the lake of fire in our place.

That God is directly responsible for Jesus' experience with sin and the wrath of God while drinking the cup of trembling is clear from the fact His walk while bearing sin in His body changed radically the moment He began drinking the cup. His relationship to the sin He bore in His sinful flesh nature changed the second He began drinking the cup of God's wrath. So much did it change that Jesus cried - My God why have you forsaken Me. What accounts for this drastic change?

By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible. In His prayer for His disciples He says, "I have declared unto them Thy name,"--"merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,"--"that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them." But not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look," and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.

But turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.

In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.

Shalom

John, thank you for sharing those quotes from DA 19-22. Indeed, the love of God is manifested in the life and death of Jesus Christ.

John
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John
15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1 John
3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.

"And all that He endured--the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face--speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee. He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

Did Jesus endure the wrath of God in our place? Please carefully read the following quote:

In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man's stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me." . . . Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony. . . . Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law. {AG 168.2}

It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when he bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God's law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {AG 168.3}

Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering. . . . The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner. {AG 168.4}

The sword of justice was unsheathed, and the wrath of God against iniquity rested upon man's substitute, Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father. {AG 168.5}