Mark

First of all, I would like to question your “hermenutics” here.

Is it always a good idea to build a doctrine on just one short Bible passage, such as you appear to be doing here? What is the bigger picture in this passage, and the intent of the author? If it is to not pray for certain ones, under certain conditions; why doesn’t God come out and tell us clearly how to handle such a serious matter? Is there any other Bible passages that would lend support to your ideas here about not praying for others?

Reading over your comments here so far, gives one the impression that the only possibility is for us to not pray for certain ones; yet, being stuck with the fact that God tells us to do something that God does not give us adequate instructions for.

I also have to wonder if you really know what the Bible means, when it says Paul “delivered an apostate Christian to Satan?” Can you tell us what specific actions Paul took, and why? In your September 16th post, you ask us “When is it appropriate to deliver an individual to Satan?” But you do not come out and say what this would involve us doing. Can you explain this better for us?

Also, in Sept 16th, you mentioned that we are to pray for not only individuals; but “pray for sins.” (or not pray for). What does it mean for a Christian to pray for sins, as opposed to praying for a person? Is there such a thing as “praying, or not praying for sins?How do you pray for a sin? That seems really convoluted, and unbiblical. You also said in Sept. 21st: “a sin that should not be prayed for.” I have never heard of praying for a sin. I have only heard of praying for people. Is there not something missing in our understanding of this text?

A valid question David, - what is involved in delivering someone to Satan. None of us were there when Paul did this, but Christianity being an open belief system, I envision that Paul under inspiration and in the presence of the offenders informed them of their blasphemy and said that God had delivered them to the bondage of sin and Satan as a consequence. This is an action affecting individuals. Again, the parallel action for a corporate body seems to be the public shaking of dust off against a community/group that rejects the gospel.

There is definitely a biblical basis for refusing to pray for an individual at times. The main purpose of the thread is to explore the when more than the whether.

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For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6

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In this text, the word impossible is used. It's like on Regis. The Holy Spirit says, "Is that your final answer?" You say 'yes' emphatically. Your fate like Esau's is sealed. Even if you seek repentance with tears, it will not come to you. You are excluded from the inheritance of the first born. Even Samuel or Moses would not be able to intercede for you. Like with Samuel who continued to intercede for Saul, the Lord finally has to say to your friends and family, 'strike that person from your prayer list, I have rejected them. It is impossible to restore them. They are beyond repentance.'

In the Investigative judgment, sentence is pronounced on individuals prior to the end of the judgment process.

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To Jesus, the Son of man, is committed all judgment. There is one mediator between God and men. Only by Him can we enter the kingdom of heaven. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. From His decision there is no appeal. .-- The Review and Herald, March 12, 1901. {7ABC 483.1}

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[ September 28, 2002, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

This is a negative topic and I don't especially enjoy it. Since it is not generating very much interest, I may leave it for now. Our focus should be primarily on the mercy and love of God, but because much of what passes for love these days is really sentimentality, I thought it would be good to bring out one of the sterner realities of the Bible.

Another of the points I wanted to bring out before signing off for now is that we have in our area people who view themselves as prayer warriors. In their mind, prayer solves everything. Intercessory prayer for everyone is what is needed. But is it? Well, yes and no.

One author has called God the hound of heaven. He stays on the track of the lost until He catches up with us. But when He catches us, does he take us captive to His will, or does He plead with us and offer us choices?

In my experience, presumptuous prayers are common place among SDA's from individuals and congregations. We pray for the healing of the sick knowing that they are abusing their health and know better. We pray for the salvation of our children while we ourselves are in rebellion. We pray for blessings on ourselves and on others when we should be asking for discipline and correction. We ask God to make us happy and prosperous when we should be asking Him to make us mourn.

Mind you, it is far better to be in earnest prayer for others mistakenly than to write someone off that the Holy Spirit is still wooing. But according to the Bible, while the prayer of the righteous man avails much, there is a time for everything. A time to intercede and a time not to intercede. And, even a time to deliver an apostate to Satan? Apparently so.

[ September 29, 2002, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

HYPOCRISY

"If [anyone] sees their [fellow human] sin a sin which is not unto death, [they] shall ask, and He shall give them life for them that sin not unto death." (1 Jo.5:16).

If we don't pay close attention to the way the Holy Spirit works in us personally, we will become spiritual hypocrites.

We will see where other people are failing, and we will turn our insight into backstabbing criticism rather than intercession to God on their behalf.

The revelation of someone else's failings is not ever made to us through the acuteness of our minds, but by the direct revelation of the Spirit of God, in a very personal way. If we are not heedful of the source, and reason of the revelation, we will become criticising, complaining Christians, and forget how God says: "...He shall ask, and He shall give him life for them that sin not unto death."

Take care, lest you play the hypocrite by spending all your time, inside your head, or verbally, or by your actions, trying to get some other one right, before you worship God yourself through intercessory prayer.

One of the subtlest burdens God ever puts onto Christians, is this burden of discernment concerning other souls. How Christians have abused this discernment!!

God reveals things, or permits them to be revealed, in order that we may take the burden of these souls before Him and form the mind of Christ about them. As we intercede on God's line, God says He will give us "life for them that sin not unto death." It is ALWAYS God's decision...NEVER our's.

It is never that we bring God into touch with our minds; but that we open ourselves to God's voice until God is able to convey His mind to us about the person or persons for whom we are interceding.

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem others as better than themselves. Look not every person on their own things, but every person also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." (Phil.2:3-5). "Pray for your enemies..."

Is Jesus seeing the exertions of His soul in us? How can He, unless we are so identified with Him, that we are divinely inspired by His Spirit to have His view about the people that we are praying for?

May we learn to intercede so whole heartedly, that Jesus Christ will be abundantly satisfied with us as intercessors!

I am back here earlier than I expected. I did a short study on those whom Paul condemned in the New Testament. I found that Alexander the Ephesian coppersmith was never converted. Paul seems to have delivered him to Satan after Alexander had great opportunity to view his work. Alexander witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit and yet rejected the evidence and apparently attributed these manifestation to Satan. Alexander was the Jew whom the Jewish Ephesians put forward during the riot in Ephesus caused by the tradesmen who made their living on images and shrines of the goddess Dianna. The story is in Acts 19.

Hymenaeus, the other person delivered to Satan seems to have been converted and then fell away, taken captive by his own speculative theology. It is somewhat surprizing to me that Paul puts him in the same class as Alexander. Hymenaeus was no doubt sincere in his speculative beliefs. Like the Jews who rejected Christ, he thought he was doing God a service. But the condemnation in both cases is identical. Apparently, God holds us accountable for the way we handle light because he know just how and where the Spirit has impressed us, and keeps an accurate record of our stewardship of the light we received.

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1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. ITimothy 1:20, II Timothy 2:17-19.

4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.
II Timothy 4:10

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When I say God keeps a record of how we respond to light, I don't mean that He is looking to punish us. He impresses us repeatedly with the same light, but every rejection on our part has a blinding effect on our consciences.

Regarding Demas, Paul initially classes Demas with Luke as a valuable fellow labourer. Demas seems to have remained faithful for quite some time, labouring with Paul, but during Pauls final imprisonment, he seems to have lost heart and forsaken Paul in his chains and loved this present world. Paul simply laments this, and offers no additional condemnation.

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4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Colosians 4:14
1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers. Philimon 1;24
4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. II Timothy 4:10

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[ October 03, 2002, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Hello Mark

I think there has been generalized acknowledgement of the above texts you have just supplied; but, it seems we still do not have a clear idea of what the Bible means when Paul gives these two over to Satan. That Paul did this, is a given; yet, what exactly is it that Paul did?

I noticed that Paul states: "That they may learn not to blaspheme."

Is this a blanket condemnation? It seems to suggest something more positive.

ST.1890-01-13.002
We should seek to appreciate the unparalleled mercy and the inexpressible love of God in not giving those who have dishonored him into the hands of the enemy of souls. It is the care of God that preserves them from Satan's power. Satan constantly presents the sins and wrongs of those who claim to be the children of God, and he taunts the angels of God with their defects. What will bring the Lord's people into a right position before him? The Lord answers the question in Malachi, saying, "Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts." When we seek the Lord with full purpose of heart, he will be found of us.

I notice also in 1 Tim.4:14 Paul states: "I pray that this not be laid to their charge." How do we reconcile this line of thought with the giving of them over to Satan?

I would suggest it simply means we have to sometimes recognize our own limitations with a person we are trying to educate with truth, and admit when our efforts may be better spent elsewhere; letting God take care of the matter another way. This seems more in line and balanced with other related Scripture and SOP; and it seems to be the context of what Paul actually did here when he says he "gave them over to Satan."

Maybe the answer can be found in this wonderful vision.

The Day-Star---- 01-24-46

"As God has shown me in holy vision the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City, and the rich reward to be given those who wait the return of their Lord from the wedding, it may be my duty to give you a short sketch of what God has revealed to me. The dear saints have got many trials to pass through. But our light afflictions which are but for a moment worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, for the things which are seen are temporal, but the
things which are not seen are eternal. I have tried to bring back a good report, & a few grapes from the heavenly Canaan, for which many would stone me, as the congregation bade stone Caleb and Joshua for their report, (Num. 14:10.) But I declare to you, my brother in the Lord, it is a goodly land, and we are well able to go up and possess it. While praying at the family altar the Holy Ghost fell on me and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me, Look again, and look a little higher. At this, I raised my eyes and see a strait and narrow
path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the City was a great way off, and
they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted, Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out which left their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again & go to the City, as all
the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000, in
number, know and understand the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder & an earthquake. When God spake the time, he poured on us the Holy
Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses did when he came down from Mount Sinai, (Ex. 34:30-34.) By this time the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us in prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and the wicked would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us who could wash one another's feet, and salute the holy brethren with a holy
kiss, and they worshipped at our feet. Soon our eyes were drawn to the East, for a small black cloud had appeared about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the Sign of the Son of Man. We all in solemn silence gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, lighter, and brighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire, a rainbow was over it, around the cloud were ten thousand angels singing a most lovely song. And on it sat the Son of Man, on his head were
crowns, his hair was white and curly and lay on his shoulders. His feet had the appearance of fire, in his right hand was a sharp sickle, in his left a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched his children
through and through. Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out, who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless? Then the angels ceased to sing, and there was
some time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke, Those who have clean hands and a pure heart shall be able to stand, my grace is sufficient for you. At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sung again while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as he descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints then raised his eyes and hands to heaven & cried out, Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in
the dust, and arise. Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted,
Hallelujah! as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. We all entered the cloud together, and were 7 days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought along the crowns and with his own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared hung with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly
satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. ............go read the rest...it is beautiful

Praise the Lord.

Charlene, what you posted is a good example of what I think John and the other apostles had in mind. Notice that even the bolded wording is almost the same.

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Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out which left their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again & go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. EGW, Early Writings

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Compare this with Hebrew 6:4-6:

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For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

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Samuel Bacchiocchi and many other theologians seem to class the statement above from Sister White as part of the shut door idea that Ellen White eventually 'corrected'. The evidence that I have seen though is that years later she still believed that for much of Protestant America, the door had been shut when they rejected the Millerite message. As far as I am aware, she always held to the view that a person is only responsible for the light that they have. In the case of the Millerite message, I don't think she ever taught that all of Protestant America was accountable, but that she believed that those whom the Spirit impressed with the message were.

[ October 05, 2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

David, in I Corinthians there is yet another example of a delivery to Satan that is clearly more in line with the points you raised in your last post. The purpose even of the delivery to Satan is redemptive:

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5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. …. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. I Cor 5:1-5

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I agree with your last post. I would just add that I think that when the person reaches the point where they are beyond the help of the church, it is appropriate at some point to not pray for someone who refuses to give up known sin. God himself mornfully said of Ephrium, he is joined to his idols, let him alone.

In the case of the Corinthian fornicator, the church followed the Apostles counsel and delivered him to Satan. In the next book however, Paul urges complete restoration. The delivery to Satan was redemptive.