When do we apply the bolded text:

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And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:14-18

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In the church it has been said for years that no one is capable of judging a brother so far as the individual's conscience is concerned, so, the conventional wisdom is that we should not give up praying for others even when their case seems hopeless. "Where there is life, there is hope".

The last part of the bolded text above directs us not to pray for someone whose sin is unto death. For us to follow that divine direction, wouldn't we have to discern when the individual has crossed that line? This text says yes. So my question is, not only when is it wrong - the answer is given to this in the text - but how do we know when someone crosses that line?

Did Paul rely on this principle when he delivered an apostate Christian to Satan so that the apostate would 'learn not to blaspheme.'

[ September 16, 2002, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark, like you, I am so thankful we are not called upon to judge our brethren. The word "discern" implies noticing the obvious. If a person is in open rebellion, we are counseled not to hang out with them as though nothing is amiss. And we should not pray for them to prosper in their rebellion, but we should pray for their speedy return to Christ and His righteousness.

2 Thes 3:14,15
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

In re-reading the text, I noted that the article at the end of the sentence refers to the sin. So the directive from John is to not pray for a certain kind of sin rather than a certain kind of individual. But given the fact that Paul under inspiration delivered an apostate to Satan, it seems the same principle applies to not just the sin but to the individual. So when is it appropriate to deliver an individual to Satan? What kind of sin are we talking about. Before we answer, remember that Manassah, one of 'Hells Angels' who would have had some knowledge of the truth even in his rebellion finally became fully converted.

Below is the passage where Paul states he has delivered two of the members of the early church to Satan. Notice however that right after saying this he exhorts the believers to make intercessory prayer for all men. Does he mean all men including those that he has delivered to Satan? Or are these two men cases in point where they fall into that class spoken of by John., that is, those who have sinned a sin that is unto death which should not be prayed for. Or is it just the sin that should not be prayed for?

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This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

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[ September 21, 2002, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Notice what Peter and Paul say about apostate believers, especially the bolded parts:

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2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . . 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. IIPeter 2

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For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned. 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 6:10

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There is a difference between backsliding and a complete falling away as described here in Hebrews. Is this complete falling away the sin that John is speaking of that should not be prayed for? If so, how are we to discern when that takes place? In the case of Manassah, the fall seemed complete, yet he repented fully later. Is the difference in Manassah's case that he was never initially converted.

[ September 22, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark, as a pastor, I have many opportunities to "discern" the open sins of church members. It's not the best part of being a minister of the gospel, that's for sure. Giving someone over to Satan is not an easy matter. But that's essentially what happens when a church votes to disfellowship someone. As always, we need to pray for that person's salvation.

Disfellowshipping and delivering a person to Satan seem biblically different. In the former, you have a decision not to fellowship with the offender by the body. In the latter, disfellowshipping is likely a given, but in addition we have something in the nature of a curse invoked on the person. I don't think the two processes should be equated.

If delivering someone over to Satan is based on open sin, I'm not sure how it would be different than disfellowshiping the person. What are your thoughts?

Do we agree that when a person is disfellowshipped that they are not necessarily lost? Where the aggrieved partner has terminated the marriage, the adulterer may repent, but the church would be wrong to take the offender back into fellowship. The innocent party would continually be faced with the pain, embarrassment and outrage of the offender. The offender would need to find salvation apart from the body. This wouldn’t be a case of both disfellowshipping and delivering the person to Satan.

What about Christ’s instruction to the disciples to shake the dust off their feet when they are rejected in a town. Similar to a delivery to Satan isn’t it? I don’t know of any Adventist evangelist who has practiced that do you? Is it because they were always successful? No. This was practiced in NT times however. It’s effect is perhaps greater on the one who follows out the directive than those who see it done. Anyone who cleans the dirt off his shoes in public from a modern Capernium will not do it unless they truly believe that the Holy Spirit has offered life and death choices through their ministry that have been spurned. When the disciples received this instruction they must have been impressed with the solemnity of the message they were to bear. Do you think any of them had occasion to do what Christ said?