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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45924
04/28/03 01:01 AM
04/28/03 01:01 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
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quote:
I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure." Isaiah 46:9-10 nkjv
It's clear to me that God does know "the end from the beginning." All the "ifs" are based on the choices of His created beings; but God knows in advance what those choices will be.
Stan
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45925
04/28/03 02:35 AM
04/28/03 02:35 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Thank you Stan for the nice quote quote:
I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure." Isaiah 46:9-10 nkjv
This is not a book read or a movie seen and a rerun in 'reality'. This is not abstract foreknowledge. This is his counsel and his pleasure that he does accomplish.
There is no question that God does know what he purposes and he does know how to accomplish it, and there is none that can hinder him. The question is whether our understanding of his foreknowledge is real, or whether it has created impossibility for the above scripture to be true.
If his foreknowledge is an abstract absolute type as has been proposed by Mike, then God himself is unable to accomplish his counsel or his pleasure. Then he is simply an observer. Or did he 'read' about himself as it were in the book also? What about the times he repented himself? Did he foreknow 'read about that' too ahead of time? What does that make of his repentance?
Is God in control, or simply an observer, and/or an unwilling/willing participant in some grand design in which he himself cannot help himself?
The original questions:
- Is God able to know the future and also at the same time be able to alter it according to his will, to accomplish his purpose and end? If so then God's foreknowledge is not abstract but based on understanding.
- What abilities and powers has he given to his creation and how does this interplay with his purposes? This also establishes our responsibility and accountability.
Shalom
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45926
04/28/03 02:38 AM
04/28/03 02:38 AM
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Daryl,
I read the whole eleventh chapter of Zachariah and saw nothing that would even remotely indicate that verse 9 was a prophecy about Jesus. I also read Psalm 41 and again saw no indication that David was speaking about anyone but himself. It gets worse.
I also read the tenth chapter of Zachariah. In it there a number of prophecies which have never been fulfilled nor ever will be. Somehow when we think of foreknowledge in connection with God, we overlook all the unfulfilled prophecies. We also overlook the problem He had getting His seventy year prophecy fulfilled in Daniel's day (Daniel 10).
Stan,
Permit me to point out that the text you quoted (Isa 46:9-10) says what I was suggesting in a previous post. God is telling us what He is going to do, not what anyone else will do. Specifically, he is telling us what Daryl was quoting at the beginning of this thread: "God was ready for the 'if man should sin'." In other words, God knew how He would handle the sin problem if it ever came up. There is nothing in this verse to indicate that God knew any of the details between the beginning and the end.
Bob Lee
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45927
04/28/03 06:02 AM
04/28/03 06:02 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
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Bob Lee wrote: quote:
Permit me to point out that the text you quoted (Isa 46:9-10) says what I was suggesting in a previous post. God is telling us what He is going to do, not what anyone else will do....There is nothing in this verse to indicate that God knew any of the details between the beginning and the end.
In response, I submit the following as just a small sample of texts available to show that God does indeed know the "details" BEFORE they happen. Emphasis here is on the actions of Judas Iscariot, and I've used the NKJV:
quote:
Acts 15
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Hebrews 4
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Matthew 9
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
John 2
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.
John 6
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
Luke 22
21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
Psalm 41
9 Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. (NOTICE THE DETAIL HERE, AND COMPARE WITH CHRIST'S OWN STATEMENT BELOW).
John 13
18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
19 "Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He."
21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."
22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
25 Then, leaning back on Jesus' breast, he said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
John 18
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him,...
Psalm 139
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
Jude 1
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hope this helps.
Stan
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45928
04/28/03 11:56 AM
04/28/03 11:56 AM
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Thank you Stan for your last post which tells me from the Bible references quoted below that Christ in John 13:18 was referring to Psalms 41:9 as a fulfillment of prophecy regarding the betrayal of Judas. quote:
Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 13:18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
Does this not prove the foreknowledge of God?
As far as prophecies not fulfilled goes, were these not conditional prophecies that were not fulfilled?
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45929
04/29/03 03:55 PM
04/29/03 03:55 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The fact God can perdict the future choices of His created beings enables Him to promise - "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. Without this promise the New Earth is no better than hell. And God cannot make this promise without knowing the end from the beginning.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45930
04/30/03 01:44 AM
04/30/03 01:44 AM
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Stan,
Thank you for taking the time to point out some of the texts in which you find evidence of God's foreknowledge. Unfortunately, I do not see in them what you do. Permit me to outline what I am seeing in them:
* Acts 15:18 Note that it says "His works," not mine. I agree that He knows what He is going to do though He has been known to change His mind.
* Heb 4:13 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
* Matt 9:4 Ditto
* John 2:23-25 Ditto
* John 6:64 part 1 Ditto. part 2 You are geting into conditional prophecy. Judas did not have to betray Jesus.
* John 6:70-71 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
* Luke 22:21-22 Ditto
* Psalm 41:9 This verse shows no indication of even being a prophecy, let alone foreknowledge.
* John 13:18-26 So Jesus had the same problem David had. What's your point? No one argues that Jesus was very discerning. He probably even had divine help here. But then so can we.
* John 18:4 If you were in Jesus' shoes back then, I think you could see quite clearly what would happen to you too. That doesn't even take divine foresight.
* Ps 139 2 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
* Jude 1:4 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
You and Daryl seem to make much of the similarity between David's problem with his friend and Jesus' problem with His. Jesus and the apostles applied many OT texts to events in the NT, but there were many statements in the OT which were not duplicated in the New and many NT events which were not preceeded by sayings in the Old. The coincidences may indeed have been prophecies, or John may have said to himself, "look, this is just like what happened to David" and said so in his gospel. It seems like an unfair exegesis to claim every coincidence is an example of foreknowledge.
As you can surmise, I see no evidence of foreknowledge in any of the texts you presented so far. More of a problem would be Peter's encounter with the rooster and Cyrus' calling by Isaiah, both of which could have changed their minds.
Bob Lee
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45931
04/30/03 11:58 AM
04/30/03 11:58 AM
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quote:
Bob Lee posted:
* Psalm 41:9 This verse shows no indication of even being a prophecy, let alone foreknowledge.
Then what Scriptures was Jesus referring to when He said this was fulfilled in John 13:18?
quote:
Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 13:18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
That seems to be clear to me that Jesus is referring to a fulfillment of prophecy here.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45932
05/01/03 02:08 AM
05/01/03 02:08 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Bob Lee, if God cannot predict or foretell the future choices of created beings - then how can we be sure He is in control? that sin shall not arise again in the New Earth?
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45933
05/01/03 04:25 AM
05/01/03 04:25 AM
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Daryl,
Where do we find in scriptures (OT) that the angels do not marry or that humans will not marry in heaven (Jesus statement in Mark 12:24, 25)? Where is Enoch's prophecy of the Lord's coming (see Jude 1:14)? There are several places in the NT where OT scripture is quoted of which we have no record. John 13:18 may be one of those places.
Read Psalm 41 again, the whole Psalm. See if you can find an indication that any of it was intended as prophetic. I agree that NT writers applied some OT statements to Jesus' life, but it seems to me quite a stretch to claim those applications were a fulfillment of prophecy when no prophecy seems to be intended in the original statement.
Mike,
You seem to be asking the question I had asked but from the other side. I asked, "If God knew which angel was going to sin, why did He create him?" Ditto for which world was going to fall. Did some higher power force Him to do it? Or was there some sinister plan in which the presence of sin was a necessity? To me, attributing to God the characteristic of foreknowledge raises far more questions than it answers.
With a world full of people who know first hand the horrors of sin and evil, and a universe full of beings who witnessed that horror, I don't believe God will have any trouble keeping sin out of His universe.
Bob Lee
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