Bob Lee, to question the inspired NT application of OT prophecies is rather bold, isn't it? Who are we to doubt the legitimacy of NT authors? Is the Holy Spirit so impotent that He cannot prevent erroneous interpretations? And was Jesus confused when He cited Jonah's experience to predict His 3 days and nights in the belly of the earth?

In the beginning, before anyone was created, the Godhead had two choices: 1) To create free moral agents and die to redeem to them from the wages of sin, or 2) Exist for eternity without them. We may never know why They chose the first option - but They did. Thank you Lord. The idea that They had no idea that angels and mankind would end up sinning is unbiblical. God is omniscient. They know the end from the beginning.

Mike,

I think I missed something in your post. I don't remember saying anything that would suggest that I "doubt the legitimacy of NT authors." In fact, I specifically said that "I agree that NT writers applied some OT statements to Jesus' life." More to the point, though, is that I question whether some of those OT statements were prophecies at all. Certainly Jonah's three days were not prophetic, but as you suggested, Jesus Himself used them as an illustration of the time He would spend "in the heart of the Earth." Surely other Bible authors should be allowed to use similar illustrations.

I thought it interesting that you stated God created "free moral agents." By definition, that means the choice of those agents (meaning us) was unknown and unknowable before they made that choice. It seems self evident that if it can be known by any manner or means whatever what I am going to do in the future, then I have no choice in the matter and am NOT a free moral agent.

It's a different subject, by why did you say "God is omniscient?" If God says He can forget (Isa 43:25, Jer 31:34, Heb 8:12) and He changes His mind (II Kings 20:1-5, Ezek 4:12-15, Amos 7:2,6, Jonah 3:10) and says He can think and plan (Isa 37:26, Jer 18:11, Micah 4:12), I don't understand why you would call Him omniscient. Do you find any Biblical evidence for that statement?

Bob Lee

The foreknowledge of God does not rob us of the freedom to change our choices. The way I see it is that eternity for God is like watching a rerun on TV. I can tell you everything that is going to happen ahead of time because I've already seen the show. But my telling you so does not make it so, nor does it rob the actors of their freedom to choose or to change their minds.

Bob Lee, I don't suppose you will ever change your mind about the foreknowledge of God, and it's not my place to try, but it gives me a sense of security to know and believe that God has everything under control, that nothing happens He hasn't already seen and planned for. Your sense of security comes in other ways. May God bless both of us.

Bob Lee wrote - "If God says He can forget (Isa 43:25, Jer 31:34, Heb 8:12) and He changes His mind (II Kings 20:1-5, Ezek 4:12-15, Amos 7:2,6, Jonah 3:10) and says He can think and plan (Isa 37:26, Jer 18:11, Micah 4:12), I don't understand why you would call Him omniscient. Do you find any Biblical evidence for that statement?"

When God said, I will remember your sins no more, I believe He meant He will no longer hold us accountable for them. In the case of Moses when God threatened to destroy Israel, or when God ordered Abraham to kill his son, etc., I believe God was simply testing them to prove their faithfulness. Thinking and planning, having preferences, etc., does not mean that God cannot forsee the future choices of created beings.

The biblical evidence that tells me God is omniscient, that He knows the end from the beginning is found in every passage where God predicted the outcome of this or that person(s) choices, in some cases long before they were born. Otherwise prophecy would be impossible, since it depends on knowing the choices people will make in future. I realize you do not interpret these passages the same way I do. But we can both thank God for the truth as it is in Jesus.

Mike,

I agree that there is more than one way to interpret Biblical texts, but that is the main point I am trying to make. With our different backgrounds, different ways of thinking, and different educational opportunities, each of us find different meanings or different ways of interpreting what we find in the Bible. I believe God helps each of us find the meaning that we need in our relationship with Him. It only becomes a problem when one person tries to force his or her interpretation on another. Unfortunately, Adventism along with most other religions has been guilty of doing just that.

On the present subject, there are good arguments on both sides of the question about the foreknowledge of God. As you suggested, the way you view God's ability gives you "a sense of security to know and believe that God has everything under control, that nothing happens He hasn't already seen and planned for." Many people find a similar comfort in that interpretation. Interestingly, I could make exactly the same statement, though I start from different assumptions and envision a different mechanism than you do. So far, I see no more reason to abandon what I understand than you do to abandon yours. But there are those for whom one or the other interpretation is unsatisfactory and is for them I believe both possibilities should be presented.

Bob Lee

It is the truth that sets us free and not our feeling of security.

This topic is far too meaningful to leave unrealized. It affects our realization of the responsibility of sin, what sin is, the greatness of God, and the meaning of faith and love.

quote:

---

The foreknowledge of God does not rob us of the freedom to change our choices. The way I see it is that eternity for God is like watching a rerun on TV. I can tell you everything that is going to happen ahead of time because I've already seen the show. But my telling you so does not make it so, nor does it rob the actors of their freedom to choose or to change their minds.

---

Mike you keep saying these impossibilities.

If the actors were to change their minds and actions between the preview and the rerun would that not change the show? For you see Mike these actors show up after the preview to do their rerun. Or on the other hand what are they choosing or changing their mind about? Is that outside the show? That would be the best thing you could say.

Mike tell me how God can "test them to prove their faithfulness" if he already knows. What is he testing?

Anyone with a little of logic would realize that if I made a machine and I knew that it will fail at such and such a time in such and such a way, that it means that I made it so that it will fail under those conditions. For my knowledge of what I had made tells me when it will fail.

I could ask you many questions, but there can be no satisfactory answers. There is however a possibility here of a misunderstanding. But Mike, please try and hear that a TV show or a book read is entirely out of line with the character and greatness of God. Such a view makes God very small. It makes him impotent. It makes him an observer; and please tell me who provides the show or book?

Mike what do you have against God understanding us so well that he can tell what we will do? What do you have against God's foreknowledge being based on understanding?

Psalms 139:1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

It is indeed comforting and reassuring to know that 'somebody knows what is going on'. Indeed if God would not have understanding and knowledge of what is going on inside and outside each person it would be quite the disaster. Indeed if God did not know our thoughts and heart, he could not save us. It is also wonderful to know that things are not just running on their own, but there is a plan and a purpose, and God is in charge.

I think it would be pretty naive to think that he who created the mind, thought and language is not able to know what is going on there. He who has created the abilities of feeling, desire, touch, taste, etc. certainly knows the interaction of all these and the outcome. The truth is that the sinner does not understand himself (for he is in darkness), but God does (for there is nothing hidden before his eyes), and one can only understand himself to the degree he is looking through the Father's eyes.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

However it is also wonderful to know that we are not actors pre-programmed to fulfil a skit. That the exercise of our will in choosing whether to trust God and delight in him is a genuine transaction between man and God, and not only make-believe apparent only to our eyes. It is wonderful to know that our heavenly Father's knowledge of us is intimate understanding and not a cold inanimate book read. It is most meaningful to know that our thoughts and actions are not simply an outworking of a pre-programmed code in the DNA. But that God has endowed us with the breath of his spirit making us living persons with whom he can fellowship and interact meaningfully in love, faith, goodwill of a free will. Persons that are made in his image, that can genuinely love, have faith, trust, have goodwill. Persons that can hold genuine fellowship with God in spirit of mercy, grace, longsuffering, forgiveness, patience, joy, peace, goodness. Persons that can worship God in spirit and in truth.

Proverbs 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.
Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

If God's foreknowledge was of that abstract nature, and not based upon understanding, then the above scriptures, of which there are many, would be impossible. What is there to ponder? What is there to search and try if it is already known. It is this that God has given to the beings created in his image, that is hallowed in his eyes, the domain that he does not enter; the realm of our own governance. The realm and domain he knows. The breadth and height and depth of it he knows. But the choice of our allegiance, of our faith (in this realm) he has made ours in such a way so that none including him can foretell. This is the genuine domain of our person. This authority is not fabulous, but it is marvellous. From a simple choice of only two options such a universe of difference can be.

Perhaps it is not understood what is meant by a free will. Who has a free will?

First, the situation before sin. When God created a free will judicial being in his own image, such was by default dependant and trusting God. God then gives them freedom to choose whether to remain faithful or to distrust. Here all heaven including God awaits the decision. There is no foreknowing here.

Second, the situation after sin. After sin, the sinner came under the dominion of Satan, and lost his/her freedom and ability to choose faith. Distrust is on every side. It is here that God stepped in and interposed between Satan and sinner so that man may be able to have the choice of faith. Here again all heaven including God awaits the decision. There is no foreknowing here.

Apart from this choice between only the two options, the choice of whether to trust God or not, man has no freedom. It is illusionary. That is to say that the idea of what decisions a person makes daily and under various circumstances in practical life are predetermined by the source that is used to make them. Example: feelings, desires, greed, lust, ambition, pride, religion, principles. On the other hand for God's children, the Lord is their source, for they delight to do his will, and therefore the outcome is known.

There is perhaps none here that stands for God's knowledge (to us foreknowledge) more than I do, but most certainly not in an abstract sense. God's understanding of us is as complete as possible without making actors out of us, or himself of no effect.

Shalom

If God's foreknowledge is an established fact then surely Satan would know this. In the story of Job, Satan dares God to remove His protection of Job claiming that Job would "curse You to Your face". Essentially Satan was claiming to be a better predictor than God of how Job would respond in adversity.

Surely, Satan would not be so naive as to challenge God's foreknowledge if it were an established fact.

The whole premise or plot of the story was over Job's free will and what he would do.

If God has a precise foreknowledge of all future events (this being distinct from control over them) then the "debate" between Satan and God makes no sense.

The notion of God's seeing the future as a video on TV (what I call precise foreknowledge) is essentially an indirect version of the Calvanistic doctrine of predestination.

dw

[ May 05, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Donovan Wallace ]

John, well done. Thank you. I very much appreciate the way you made a distinction between God "understanding us so well that he can tell what we will do" or "foreknowledge being based on understanding" and my idea that for God the history of our choices is like watching a rerun on TV or rereading a book.

But then you went on to say that God's fatherly foreknowledge or understanding us well enough to know what we will do is limited when it comes to knowing ahead of time whether or not we will accept or reject Jesus as our personal Saviour, whether or not we will commit a known sin. Can you please explain this apparent contradiction?

Also, do you believe God is able to look into the future and predict, based on His understanding foreknowledge, what we will do before we are born? And secondly, do you believe God can predict the future outcomes of mankind and his choices?

God knows who will be saved and who lost, and He has known this before the world was created:

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” Rev 17:8

Great quote, Lobo. That should settle the question this thread is based on! Thank you Jesus.