The point that I am trying to get at is the fact that Christ referred to the fact that the betrayal was prophesied in the OT Scriptures that He would be betrayed, and betrayed He was. The OT Scripture, wherever it is, may not have stated who the person was, but it did give sufficient detail rerlating to the betrayal even to the cost of the betrayal, 40 silver coins.

Also, all the prophecies of the rise and fall of the kingdoms, even naming the symbols of those kingdoms as clearly defined in the statue in Nebu.....'s dream, is to detailed for it not to be based on the foreknowledge of God.

Darius, I have to agree with Lobo. God cannot prophesy future developments of kingdoms unless He also knows the choices specific individuals will make under a myriad of circumstances. Cyrus, a contemporary of your namesake, is one such example. But if God does not know the future, like watching a rerun, then in order for Him to accurately foretell the future He would have to manipulate the choices mankind to force things to turn out the way He said it would. Which of course He will not do, nor does He have to since He knows the end from the beginning.

God had foreknowledge of Israel rejecting Jesus:

“22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.” Acts 2


God has foreknowledge of who will be saved:

“1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.” 1 Peter

Lobo, if God knows exactly who will be saved then He knows exactly what will bring this controversy to an end. This presents a small problem.

If I knew that something I was about to do would not work, and also knew that another approach would work, there is no need to guess which approach I would use. I would use the approach that I know will work. We know (believe) that at some point this will all be resolved in God's favor.

According to "foreknowledge" God knows what will work to accomplish that. We also know that several things He has done have not worked: the flood, calling Abraham and the establishing the Jews as His people.

Tell me this, if He knew what would work and what would not work, why would He put us through all this misery and try what He already knew would not work?

I just refuse to believe I am smarter than God.

Everything God is doing to end the great controversy is part and parcel of what is needful to accomplish His objectives. Remember, if Adam and Eve had successfully resisted Satan's initial temptation the great controversy would have ended then and there. Ever since then everything God has been doing and will yet do is the one plan that will bring an end to sin and sinners. Nothing that has happened between the fall of Adam and now has taken God by surprise. That is, He hasn't been hoping He can end the controversy sooner than this. He knows why and when the controversy will end.

1. When Adam and Eve were placed in the beautiful garden, they had everything for their happiness which they could desire. But he chose in his all-wise arrangements to test their loyalty before they could be rendered eternally secure. They were to have his favor, and he to converse with them, and they with him. Yet he did not place evil out of their reach. Satan was permitted to tempt them. If they endured the trial they were to be in perpetual favor with God and the heavenly angels. {3SG 38.2}

[ May 09, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

I first came into this discussion many years ago when I was reading Daniel 10. I would invite everyone to review that chapter along with chapter 9. Here Daniel is asking the Lord why the Jews were not on their way back to Jerusalem since the seventy years of captivity promised through Jeremiah were up (see Daniel 9:1-3). Instead of answering, God sent Gabriel with a message about an additional seventy weeks which really sent Daniel into a tizzy. Soon after this, Daniel spent three weeks begging for understanding and was even physically sick over the situation. Finally a majestic being appeared who stated that he had come three weeks earlier to answer his (Daniel's) prayer, but had been detained in the process of trying to get the king of Persia to honor that seventy week prophecy. Finally, the being sent for reinforcements. So another being called Michael came to help him and while Michael was negotiating with Cyrus, this being came to respond to Daniel's prayer.

In reading this, I asked myself, "If God can see the future as Christendom teaches, what's this all about?" Why did TWO heavenly beings have to come to Earth just to get a prophecy fulfilled? Weren't prophecies a reflection of events which God knew would occur? That question began a study which led me to believe that many things we teach about God are actually human inventions that have little or no scriptural basis, the concept that God has foreknowledge being one of them.

Bob Lee

This is turning into a very interesting topic for I had always thought that God knew both the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end.

Does the SDA Church have an official doctrinal stand on this?