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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45954
05/07/03 04:11 PM
05/07/03 04:11 PM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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The phrase "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" could be taken to mean - Whose names were not written in the book of life where names have been recorded from the foundation of the world.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45955
05/07/03 08:21 PM
05/07/03 08:21 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mike you seem to have a concern that some unworthy person might end up in heaven because their name got left in the book of life. I would not worry about that. All that will remain in the book of the Lamb’s Life are possessors of the Lamb’s Life. It is a wonderful life. Hallelujah. This will become meaningful in our topic of “Salvation is from sin, or what? Lobo I would like to invite your comments in that topic. Understanding is deep and far-reaching with God. There is nothing hid. His declaration of what is or shall be is true. The word ‘predict’ does not do justice to God’s knowledge. God does not predict. He knows, he understands, he purposes, he declares, he reveals, he rules. Prophecy is not a question. It is according to God's knowledge, purpose and mastery. There are specifically 2 points in question that are at issue. - Did God foreknow that Lucifer will fall; Adam will fall?
- Did God foreknow who (as an individual) will be saved, and who will not?
The answer to both of the above is NO!
To me it seems very plain from the subject on the book of Life,not only that it does not support foreknowledge there, but that the second question is thus answered. By default, that would also mean the first question to be likewise answered. Others may need to see more.
I would like to ask, while we are at this topic and since most here believe that God does foreknow wonderfully, if any have any personal experience with God's foreknowledge that they would like to share with us here?
Shalom
[ May 08, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45956
05/07/03 09:26 PM
05/07/03 09:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
For example, the prediction of Jesus coming to save the human race in Gen 3:15.
That was a promise, not a prediction. Notice God did not make any statements regarding the rise of Abraham and the Hebrews, then the rise of Christianity. He did not know these would happen because they were in response to developments "on the ground." There is nothing to support the view that foreknowledge is a prerequisite for deity. It is only necessary that Jehovah know more than the next guy.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45957
05/07/03 10:03 PM
05/07/03 10:03 PM
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quote:
That was a promise, not a prediction. Notice God did not make any statements regarding the rise of Abraham and the Hebrews, then the rise of Christianity. He did not know these would happen because they were in response to developments "on the ground." There is nothing to support the view that foreknowledge is a prerequisite for deity. It is only necessary that Jehovah know more than the next guy.
Darius, for God to maintain the freewill system of choice He has to know what will happen. If He causes something to happen that removes mans freewill.
There are so many human factors involved in all of the prophesies of the OT. Millions of variables that have to come together to produce the results God indicates will occur. So either God is removing many peoples freewill to have His purpose fulfilled (by changing circumstances and making people do certain things), or He knows who will choose what ahead of time and just tells us about it beforehand.
Removing the foreknowledge of God makes Him a manipulator of man’s freewill, because there is no other way He could guarantee an accurate outcome to a stated event ahead of time.
So either God doesn’t have foreknowledge and manipulates man’s freewill to reach a certain outcome, or He knows what choices men will make and just let’s us know ahead of time what will occur.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45958
05/08/03 12:19 AM
05/08/03 12:19 AM
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How did God forsee this unless He either has foreknowledge or manipulated the result? quote:
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
I believe God knew this would happen and prophesized it accordingly.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45959
05/08/03 12:26 AM
05/08/03 12:26 AM
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Bob Lee, Regarding the following: quote:
John 13:18[/b] I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
That seems to be clear to me that Jesus is referring to a fulfillment of prophecy here.
You never did answer my question as to what Scripture that Christ was referring to when He said what He said in the above reference, obviously referring to the betrayal by Judas which was obviously prophesied in the OT Scriptures seeing that the NT Scriptures didn't yet exist.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45960
05/08/03 04:27 AM
05/08/03 04:27 AM
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Daryl,
I thought I made it clear that the NT makes reference to many prophecies of which we have no record. Just because Jesus or the Disciples state an event fulfilled a prediction doesn't necessarily mean a similar statement is actually being referred to, especially one which shows no evidence of being a prediction.
In fact, the major theme of Isaiah, the last eight chapters of Ezekiel, some of Zachariah and portions of other OT books strongly imply that Jesus would come to set up the New Earth at His first coming. Even in the New Testament, everyone, including Jesus, seems to believe Jesus would be back within a few years of His ascension. On the surface, there is virtually nothing in the OT to suggest the kind of life Jesus actually lived when He got here. When conditions developed as they did, then some of the OT statements were applied to events in Jesus' life.
Permit me to suggest that virtually all prophecies fall into one of two catagories.
1. What God promised He would do (some of these prophecies are conditional.
2. Conditional prophecies (like Jonah's)
It doesn't require foreknowledge for either one of them.
Bob Lee
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45961
05/08/03 11:53 AM
05/08/03 11:53 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
Darius, for God to maintain the freewill system of choice He has to know what will happen. If He causes something to happen that removes mans freewill.
I wish you would take us through your reasoning so I can respond responsibly. I truly wish you will take the time so we can clear this up.
quote:
There are so many human factors involved in all of the prophesies of the OT. Millions of variables that have to come together to produce the results God indicates will occur. So either God is removing many peoples freewill to have His purpose fulfilled (by changing circumstances and making people do certain things), or He knows who will choose what ahead of time and just tells us about it beforehand.
I will never forget something I learned in my Public Evangelism class. Our professor told us that if we follow his principles as taught we could be certain that a particular percentage would respond. However, we could not tell which individuals in the congregation would respond. In the recent war the Pentagon could predict casualties but never attempted to tell us which Marines would die. You have to provide a prophecy in which God predicted the behavior of a particular person. Christ's prediction about Peter does not qualify because it was based on an analysis of Peter.
quote:
Removing the foreknowledge of God makes Him a manipulator of man’s freewill, because there is no other way He could guarantee an accurate outcome to a stated event ahead of time.
This does not follow. If God does not know what I will do tomorrow how is He manipulating my will. We must be careful not to posit a version of human will that denies divine will.
quote:
So either God doesn’t have foreknowledge and manipulates man’s freewill to reach a certain outcome, or He knows what choices men will make and just let’s us know ahead of time what will occur.
This too does not follow. The future does not depend only on man's efforts. If the Jews had accepted Jesus we would never have had the rise of Christianity. The rise of Christianity was the exercise of God's will in response to the corporate exercise of the Jewish will.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45962
05/09/03 02:00 AM
05/09/03 02:00 AM
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Posts: 22,256
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John, thank you for reminding me that I do not need to worry about someone slipping into heaven who shouldn't be there. Thank you Jesus. You're right "predict" isn't the best word - foreknowledge is a much better one.
Here's a personal story about God's foreknowledge (it's a rather sad one so please bear with me). I dreamed that my wife and I were on a cruise ship at sea. We were having a wonderful and romantic time. We were in love. Then suddenly a terrible storm washed both of us overboard. We were trying desperately to stay together but a huge wave separated us. I never saw her again. I woke up and was glad to find my wife sleeping soundly beside me. Six months later she left me for another man. The day she left was the first I knew about it. She had met him a month earlier, but before then it never occurred to her she would fall in love with him and leave me.
Again, I'm sorry for sharing such a sad story. Please don't feel like you have tiptoe around me. Just respond honestly. The day she left I recalled the dream, and it was then that I suspected God knew she was going to leave me in future and that He was trying to prepare me for the rude awakening and heartache. In truth the dream has comforted me ever since.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45963
05/09/03 02:18 AM
05/09/03 02:18 AM
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SDA
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Darius wrote concerning Gen 3:15 - "That was a promise, not a prediction. Notice God did not make any statements regarding the rise of Abraham and the Hebrews, then the rise of Christianity. He did not know these would happen because they were in response to developments "on the ground." There is nothing to support the view that foreknowledge is a prerequisite for deity. It is only necessary that Jehovah know more than the next guy."
Darius please consider these quotes:
1. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. The divine sentence pronounced against Satan after the fall of man was also a prophecy, embracing all the ages to the close of time and foreshadowing the great conflict to engage all the races of men who should live upon the earth. {GC 505.1}
2. The incarnation of Christ is a mystery. The union of divinity with humanity is a mystery indeed, hidden with God, "even the mystery which hath been hid from ages." It was kept in eternal silence by Jehovah, and was first revealed in Eden, by the prophecy that the Seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head, and that he should bruise His heel. {6BC 1082.4}
To present to the world this mystery that God kept in silence for eternal ages before the world was created, before man was created, was the part that Christ was to act in the work He entered upon when He came to this earth. And this wonderful mystery, the incarnation of Christ and the atonement that He made, must be declared to every son and daughter of Adam. . . . His sufferings perfectly fulfilled the claims of the law of God (ST Jan. 30, 1912). {6BC 1082.5}
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