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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45974
05/09/03 01:11 PM
05/09/03 01:11 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Everything God is doing to end the great controversy is part and parcel of what is needful to accomplish His objectives.
At this point our arguments are similar to those used by evolutionists who point out the fact that because every organism today fits some evolutionary niche it means that this came about through evolution. I think we can all see that this is circular reasoning.
It is obvious that the question of God's foreknowledge is not a simple proposition.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45975
05/09/03 01:13 PM
05/09/03 01:13 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Does the SDA Church have an official doctrinal stand on this?[/b]
I sense murky water ahead.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45976
05/09/03 01:42 PM
05/09/03 01:42 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Bob Lee, isn't it obvious that God's foreknowledge is based on what will happen as if it had already happened? So why should we be surprised at the details involved when things turn out the way they do? The reason God was able to prophesy what Cyrus would do is because He knew the history before, during and after Cyrus, which included Michael and Gabriel exerting extra effort to influence his course of action.
To suggest God doesn't know the future decisions of individual people based on the fact Michael and Gabriel had to work hard to influence Cyrus' decree, as if it was necessary to save face, ignores the fact God already knew ahead of time the details involved that led Cyrus to allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Prophecy rarely includes all the details that result in the prophesied outcome. So we shouldn't be derailed on account of the many details involved in the fulfillment of a prophecy, so long as the results are in harmony with the prophesied outcome.
Darius, isn't it amazing how evolutionists can take Bible truth and pervert it to support the theory of monkeys and man? It just goes to show that Satan cannot originate an original idea, all he can do is twist the truth to serve a lie.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45977
05/10/03 02:26 AM
05/10/03 02:26 AM
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It would also be interesting to see if EGW was given any insight on this.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45978
05/10/03 02:30 AM
05/10/03 02:30 AM
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quote:
In reading this, I asked myself, "If God can see the future as Christendom teaches, what's this all about?" Why did TWO heavenly beings have to come to Earth just to get a prophecy fulfilled? Weren't prophecies a reflection of events which God knew would occur? That question began a study which led me to believe that many things we teach about God are actually human inventions that have little or no scriptural basis, the concept that God has foreknowledge being one of them.
Bob, many, including myself, interpret Daniel 10:13 as angels in conflict with one another. In other words, the “prince” of the kingdom of Persia is actually a fallen angel trying to interfere with God’s plans.
Jesus himself calls saten the “prince of this world” (John 12:31). Paul also tells us that the fight or conflict between good and evil is a spiritual war where angels and spiritual being fight behind the scenes to support or destroy God’s plans (Eph 6:12).
Next, notice that there is no other mention of a “prince of Persia” in any other book of scripture. There is a king of Persia, but no prince. The only other mention of a prince is later in this same chapter (10:20) when Gabriel is stating that he is going back to “fight” (NIV) this prince of Persia. So again it would not be reasonable that an angel would be fighting with a human for 21 days and need help just to leave and go to Daniel.
So in reality it doesn’t appear that Daniel 10:13 refers to angels trying to get people to do something, but trying to stop fallen angels from interfering in God’s work. And since angels are evenly matched it would be reasonable to believe that it would take 21 days and help form other angels to get the work done while other fallen angels try and cause problems.
So what Daniel 10:13 refers to is basically a fallen angel not letting the angel Gabriel get to Daniel to give him the vision. I don’t believe this text had anything to do with the literal human prince of Persia (because such person doesn’t appear to exist other than in this chapter of Daniel) but the fallen angel who was assigned to that area.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45979
05/09/03 09:02 PM
05/09/03 09:02 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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I want to thank you Mike for sharing your personal experience of God's foreknowledge. I am sorry that it was such a sad occasion for you. It is obvious that God knew her heart and basis of relationship, and knew that she would be swept away when the storm of temptation came. This reminds me of the story of the different types of ground that Christ was referring to. How obvious the different results for the same seed on different ground, and under different conditions. Now we do not have to remain the bad ground. We can ask him to make of us the good ground. He can do it. Albeit he may have to remove a lot and bring in a lot. I would also like to share experiences that we have had with our heavenly Father's foreknowledge. But it will take a little time to write. They have positive endings so it won't be sad, but I trust meaningful insight in this discussion of both questions. - God's ability to know the future and also at the same time be able to alter it according to his will, to accomplish his purpose and end.
- The abilities and powers he gave to his creation and how this interplays with his purposes. This also establishes our responsibility and accountability.
Shalom
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45980
05/10/03 04:22 AM
05/10/03 04:22 AM
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Lobo,
That's an interesting concept you presented but it does not go to the heart of the discussion. The point, no matter who the participants are, is that the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy was NOT automatic. In other words, God and His angels had to interfere with the course of events in order to get the promise (prophecy) fulfilled. Or looking at it the other way, if God and His angels had not interferred, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled! Your version seems to make the possibility of foreknowledge even more unlikely.
Bob Lee
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45981
05/12/03 03:21 PM
05/12/03 03:21 PM
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quote:
Lobo,
That's an interesting concept you presented but it does not go to the heart of the discussion. The point, no matter who the participants are, is that the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy was NOT automatic. In other words, God and His angels had to interfere with the course of events in order to get the promise (prophecy) fulfilled. Or looking at it the other way, if God and His angels had not interferred, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled! Your version seems to make the possibility of foreknowledge even more unlikely.
Bob, you are missing my point. God does intervene when asked to by man or to preserve man’s freewill. So if God is going to give a vision to Daniel, at Daniel’s request I might add, and a demon tries to stop it, God is going to act.
So really all this proves is that the future can be changed, not that God doesn’t have foreknowledge of it.
Remember, our discussion is not about whether the fulfillment of prophesy is automatic, its about whether God knows a head of time what the outcome will be. So the fact that God did intervene to give Daniel the vision shows that God knew what the outcome would be if He did not.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45982
05/13/03 02:12 AM
05/13/03 02:12 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John, thank you, especially thank you for not ignoring or overlooking my personal story. Not everybody is comfortable with sad stories, which is probably why it's not wise to share them in this type of forum - sad stories, that is. I look forward to your stories.
Boblee, it looks as though you overlooked the post where I suggested why and how things worked out the way they did in light of God's foreknowledge and Cyrus and Michael and Gabriel. Or are you still planning to respond to it?
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45983
05/13/03 01:04 PM
05/13/03 01:04 PM
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EGW states in Desire of Ages that Jesus could have failed in His mission to redeem us. If God has absolute foreknowledge, then there was no risk, no possibility of failure. Or is there another angle I'm not seeing...
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