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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46004
05/21/03 10:08 PM
05/21/03 10:08 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
I’m afraid it is John. God has the power and authority to remove freewill and do what he wants. Yet He has chosen to give His created being freewill. However, in doing this God had to not influence the outcome of man’s freewill choice, because then it wouldn’t be freewill. So even though God could decide to remove freewill and know what choice all will make, He chose to not do that. So yes, this is an ability God has that He is choosing not to use.

Again, this is exactly the same as Jesus ABILITY to save Himself from the cross, but CHOSE not to.

Also, God also knew that giving freewill would also create the possibility of rebellion.

Thank you Lobo. I fully agree with what you said here. It is definitely so. It is true that God can create without freewill or he can remove the ability of freewill and know fully what the logistic will be, for indeed he would then programme it. That is not the question, and there is no question with what you said here.

The issue being dealt with was that when God chose to create freewill he had to exclude his ability to foreknow it in order to do it. This is what you also said. I did not mean to limit God in what he created, nor did I think that the reason why he created freewill was because he was not able to do otherwise. What I said is that God could not create freewill and still have the ability to know its choice, or to have the ability to look it up somewhere. In creation that is impossible. That God has the ability to remove freewill is a given. But as choice is only possible where there is freewill, the idea of knowing the choice where there is no freewill is out of the equation for the choice has been removed. All this is in context of creation.

What is wonderful is how God's purpose in creating free will was that such should become faithful. It is marvellous how God purposed to establish fully known, reliable and faithful, that which was initially an unpredictable free will. And that one should and could become so without violating free will. See section above titled God is in the business of establishing reliable the unpredictable.

Another thing that we have not discussed here is the interaction of God's will with the will of his created beings and how this can alter the will without violating it

Shalom

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46005
05/21/03 10:25 PM
05/21/03 10:25 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
He has the power and authority to do what He wants. He had the power to not create the world and man, and He has the authority to break any of the rules He has put in place, because they are His rules.

Actually, they are not His rules. They are the rules of his government. As a just ruler He cannot violate the laws of His government, for that would reduce Him to the worst of earth's dictators who are not bound by the laws of their government.

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46006
05/21/03 11:06 PM
05/21/03 11:06 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Lobo & Darius

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

There is much more to God than POWER. There is a wonderful person. It is not rules that it is about, but a wonderful PERSON.

Shalom

[ May 21, 2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46007
05/23/03 02:34 AM
05/23/03 02:34 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered

quote:

Actually, they are not His rules. They are the rules of his government. As a just ruler He cannot violate the laws of His government, for that would reduce Him to the worst of earth's dictators who are not bound by the laws of their government.

Darious, You are applying your own values to what God can or cannot do. We are discussing His ability, not what we think He will do based on history and our current knowledge of Him. So the idea of how God will “look” to other created being or man if He violates His own rules is not germane to His ability.

As having all power, regardless of how this makes him appear, He has the ability to do whatever he wants. Period!

What God can do and what we think He can do while maintaining His current governmental scripture, are two different things.

Now, if you want to discuss what He can do in the confines of His current “government”, which is based on our current knowledge of such, then let’s do that, but that is an entirely different issue.


John, I agree with your post. My only point is that I believe God already had a plan in place for the chance that His new created beings would rebel. So what I’m saying is that without removing freewill or looking into the future, God was ready for rebellion should it occur.

As for your last question; that is why it takes a margin of faith with the available evidence to believe and trust in God. That allows Him to not unduly influence our choice. However, once we have made the choice to serve Him He can and does influence our choices to a much greater extent, but since we chose that path, it still supports our freewill.

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46008
05/23/03 12:54 AM
05/23/03 12:54 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
John, I agree with your post. My only point is that I believe God already had a plan in place for the chance that His new created beings would rebel. So what I’m saying is that without removing freewill or looking into the future, God was ready for rebellion should it occur.

Agreed. My original statement for this topic "God was ready for the 'if man should sin', but he did not foresee that the 'if' will happen." He did foresee that it could happen, but not that it will happen. So, as we said God knew all the 'what ifs' and was ready for any of them. "Was ready" means that he knew what it would involve and that he was willing and prepared for it.

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46009
05/23/03 06:19 PM
05/23/03 06:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Knowing the "what if's" based on understanding doesn't require divine foreknowledge. Anybody possessed of at least ordinary insight could sit down and make a similar list. That includes the Devil. In what way then does God differ from the rest? In what way does His foreknowledge give us peace of mind? If He's winging it as things unfold then how can I trust His prophetic insights? especially Nahum 1:9?

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46010
05/23/03 08:45 PM
05/23/03 08:45 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Mike your comments seem to miss the information in my post of May 19, 2003 05:02 PM. Could you please tell me what that post means to you.

Shalom

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46011
05/26/03 10:37 AM
05/26/03 10:37 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
God's knowledge became significant in my life when I was six years old. I was taught from birth that God sees and knows everything, but it was not until I was six years of age that I witnessed the benefit of God's knowledge in such a way that I received a key lesson in my life.

The occasion was simple. My Aunt being of marriageable age was center of attention of a number of young men in the church, and hence a fair amount of conversation occurred in our home (a 9'x12' room). There was a lot of discussion of who was the right one, as well as whom she liked/loved. As it happened she liked/loved one fellow that my mother declared no good. Then one time a fellow came from the country that my mother said was good, but she did not like him. Well, that sounded interesting to me and I began to pay attention to what was going on. Here we were, mother said 'no good' but she loved him, and then mother said 'good' and she did not like him. I wondered how is one supposed to know?

The answer came several weeks later in a simple manner but very profound for me. On Sabbath he had asked her to meet him the following day at 5pm at a little Park near us. (Secretly he prayed and asked God for a sign; if she was for him that she would come, and if not, that she does not). It was Sunday and at our home there was a lot of arguing. My Aunt was vehement that she will not go, while my mom was trying to convince her not to be so. Then my Aunt declared she was settled she was not going. Late afternoon supper was being prepared when they realized they were missing a necessary ingredient to ready supper. (We had no fridge; stores were closed.) There was nothing to it but to go and borrow some from a sister in the church that lived near us. (This happened to be right beside the Park.)

My Aunt went to get the ingredient, and as she was leaving she made sure my mom knew she was not going to the Park. As she arrived at the sister's home she heard a lot of yelling and a boot flying and smashing into the door which she was approaching. (The husband of the sister was an unbeliever and drunkard and chose this moment to have a brawl.) Well, my Aunt did not feel like knocking on the door just then and thought she would wait a while for things to cool down inside. While she was waiting she found herself standing facing the Park. It was now about an hour past the time she was supposed to have met him, and she became curious if he was still there. She found him sitting on a bench witnessing to someone. It was then that my Aunt had an inner realization that she had been fighting the Lord. I do not remember what happened with supper that night.

Observations,
1. God's fatherly interference in my Aunts affairs.
2. Don't expect your feelings, emotions and desires to be in agreement with God's will. These must be taught to appreciate his way.
3. God's arrangement of circumstances to bring my Aunt to realization of issues.

The lessons I learned from that were to set the future course for me as I resolved and made a solemn promise that when I come to that time in my life I will ask the Lord to choose for me. I realized that feelings, emotions, likes, and dislikes are not to be listened to. (She liked/loved the other fellow, but he was not the one. She did not like this fellow, yet he was the one.) On the other hand I questioned one's ability to know. (While my mom seemed right, what were her conclusions based on? She had taught me we couldn't know the heart of another or one's own heart (which is deceitful), but God knows the heart.) Hence my resolution to seek from the Lord. I did find it wonderful that we can avail ourselves of God's knowledge and wisdom, and need not go about guessing. God has a plan and purpose for each one of us, if we will let him lead us.

While perhaps this experience may appear to have little to do with God's foreknowledge, it is a preamble to my experience, which is to follow, which reveals the significance much more.

Shalom

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46012
05/27/03 03:26 PM
05/27/03 03:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John, thanx for that delightful story. God is good. But not all stories have such a sweet ending. In my case there was no doubt in my mind it was God's will that I marry my wife. Many were the signs. But it ended in divorce after several years of hard times. However, I still do not doubt it was God's will. I learned many valuable lessons through it all. I am a better person now. God is good.

It was God who chose King Saul. It was God who created Lucifer. It was God who created Adam and Eve. It was Jesus who permitted Judas to manage the money bag. And the list goes on. Obviously then God's will is very complex. But by faith we may learn and grow in grace.

I look forward to the continuation of your story. Thank you for sharing.

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? #46013
06/04/03 12:17 PM
06/04/03 12:17 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Lobo, I would like to add that God will not allow us to make choices that will ultimately upset the outcome of the great controversy. He will either exert superhuman effort to influence us to choose the best course of action or put us in an early grave to prevent us from making a choice that would upset His plans for the outcome of the great controversy. Balaam and the talking donkey is an example of how far God is willing to go to prevent us from making the wrong decisions. This does not imply all wrong decisions are going to upset God's ultimate plan.

At the base you seem to be saying that if God cannot win fairly He will be forced to play foul. Balaam's experience is not apropos to the question. If the entire human race were to decide to follow Lucifer God, under the rules He has imposed, would have to accept that decision. Whether that would mean He lost the controversy depends on whether one thinks the controversy is restricted to what occurs on earth, or involves the entire universe.

However, the notion that God stands prepared to "rig the elections" is very unpalatable.

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