Could have failed or could have returned ere this does not detract from the foreknowledge of God or manipulate history. Freedom of choice is not destroyed simply because God has already seen things play out. There are a million ways things could have turned out but God knows how they will turn out because He's already seen it - like watching a rerun, which includes all the ways God has prevented things from turning out a way not best for mankind or the universe. Not that God is making it up as He goes along. He knows when and how to upset Satan's plans so that things turn out best for all involved. And all this is taken into account when He prophesies the future.

Mike,

I apologize for overlooking the question you asked. In your remarks, you stated that I am ignoring "the fact God already knew ahead of time the details involved..." I wasn't ignoring the "fact," I am saying I find no evidence of that being a "fact" -- that God knows anything ahead of time. And I am using the story of Michael and the other being (we are not told who it was) as corroboration of that belief.

By the way, the concept that God knows the future seems to limit God extremely by turning Him into nothing but a preprogrammed computer! And I would ask, If God is the top Banana, just who programmed the computer? He's not allowed to make plans, respond to requests, change His mind, or get upset; all of which He specifically says He does.

It's interesting that Lobo stated "So really all this proves is that the future can be changed, not that God doesn't have foreknowledge of it." Lobo admits the exact point I am trying to make. He admits the future can be changed, but if the future can be changed, then God cannot have foreknowledge of it. Conversely, if God has foreknowledge, then the future cannot be changed. That includes any choices I supposedly make. If God knows the choice I am going to make, then I really don't have any choice. How can anyone say otherwise?

It's like the question: what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object? If you define an irresistible force, you have automatically defined away the possibility of an immovable object! Similarly, if you allow changes to be made in the future (or God to change His mind, or lay plans, or forget your sins, or respond to your prayers), you automatically define away the possibility that the future can be known.

Bob Lee

Bob Lee, thank you for responding to my thoughts on foreknowledge. I didn't mean to say you were ignoring them. I thought maybe you had overlooked my last post to you. It's looking as though we'll never agree on this subject, but fortunately our salvation does not depend on getting it right. God is bigger than we can ever imagine, His ways past finding out.

You wrote - "He's not allowed to make plans, respond to requests, change His mind, or get upset; all of which He specifically says He does." I agree with you that God can and does do these things. It's just that I don't see how or why they prevent Him from having foreknowledge. Just because it appears to us that God is willing to change His mind doesn't mean He will. In most cases it was just His strategy to test us or to influence us to make the best choice (i.e., Abraham and Moses).

I believe God has foreseen everything He has done and will do for eternity as if it has already happened, which includes the many different ways things could have turned if this or that had happened. This also includes interacting with us in a way that influences us to choose the best course of action so as to get the best results - all of which keeps in mind the outcome of the great controversy.

In order for the future to turn out the way God has forseen and/or foreordained He must be proactive - that is, He must intervene to prevent choices from being made that would yield results not in keeping with His plan for the outcome of the great controversy. But all His interventions are part of the details He foresaw in order for things to turn out right. He knows ahead of time the part He must play to ensure everything goes the right way.

I realize you don't see it this way, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me, the only way I can understand how He can prophesy future events with perfect precision, the only way I can know in my heart He is in control and that the future is safe in His hands.

Lobo, I would like to add that God will not allow us to make choices that will ultimately upset the outcome of the great controversy. He will either exert superhuman effort to influence us to choose the best course of action or put us in an early grave to prevent us from making a choice that would upset His plans for the outcome of the great controversy. Balaam and the talking donkey is an example of how far God is willing to go to prevent us from making the wrong decisions. This does not imply all wrong decisions are going to upset God's ultimate plan.

Mike, I totally agree. This also shows that God does know the outcome of actions, which means He has foreknowledge of the outcome of the actions we take. So the fact that God takes certain actions to keep His plan moving to the correct outcome proves that He knows the outcome, which means He has foreknowledge.

Lobo, I love the way you put that. Thank you!! God is good.

Thank you Lobo for your comments. These were also my original comments that started this topic going.

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So if God has foreknowledge of the outcome of our choices, the question is does He also know what we will choose? Since we have freewill I would have to say no. God knows what the outcome of our choice will be, but to preserve our freewill does not know what our choice will be.

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God knows all the 'what ifs' and is ready for any of them them. But he does not know which "if" we will choose.

The original question in relation to this was, whether God knew that Lucifer would fall/sin, and that man would fall/sin.

The answer then is that God did not know that Lucifer would fall/sin, and He did not know that man would fall/sin. God certainly did not plan nor purpose that either should sin. Sin was not inevitable, nor was it inescapable, it was not even probable, it was only possible.

When a free moral agent is created, no amount of Foreknowledge can destine/foreknow the choice of such a being. Foreknowledge may know all the variables, and it is precisely the variables that establish the level of the 'freedom' that such a moral agent has. Where there is no variable there is no freedom. A foreknowledge that 'knows' which variable a free moral agent will choose establishes the fact that the agent was not free to choose, and therefore was not a free moral agent, and the idea of choice is illusionary.

Since the fall/sin this equation is more complicated, because there is many times when a man thinks he is choosing of his own free will, while he is only being a slave to his own lusts or desires, etc. The choices that such a one makes are easily known since they are but the outworking of known factors. This is where God steps in often to bring a man to a position where he can put him on neutral ground so that such could exercise his/her free will and choose salvation.

Such knowledge is based on understanding and no previews.

Mike do you agree now?

Shalom

John, thank you. I agree that once sin entered the picture, now that we are born slaves to sin, we do not have the freedom to choose not to sin. We sin naturally, instinctively, automatically. Of our own accord we cannot not sin. We born slaves to sin, self and Satan. We are far from free moral agents.

We have but one choice in life and that is to choose Jesus as our personal Lord and Saviour. Otherwise we sin by default. We do not have to choose to sin in order to sin, all we have to do to sin is not choose Jesus and we sin without effort or choice.

Does God foreknow the depths of our sin if we refuse to choose Jesus? I believe He does. Not because He's good at deducing the course of sin or because He knows us well enough to predict the outcome, but because He knows the end from the beginning - again, like watching a rerun. Knowing the future does not rob us of our freedom to choose Jesus, which is our only choice.

There are many examples in the Bible where God forewarned people of choices they were going to make, but the warning did not make them do it and neither did it prevent them from doing it. Judas is a perfect example of this point. Did Jesus know him well enough to guess his future course of action or did Jesus know the end from the beginning? And what about the prophecy? I choose to believe Jesus knows what is in man and doesn't need anyone to tell Him.

John
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.