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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45994
05/16/03 01:12 AM
05/16/03 01:12 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Thank you Lobo and Mike Lobo First, quote:
Since freewill always allows the possibility of disobedience, in the case of man and Satan, God would have a plan already in mind for the chance that rebellion did occur.
Fully agreed. That means that God knows all the 'what ifs' and is ready for any of them.
Next,
quote:
I do believe God has foreknowledge of more than understanding. History has shown that God’s interaction with man has been very measured and calculated. This demonstrates more than understanding, but a specific knowledge of the result of each action.
So I believe God can see the future of choices we make based on a view or preview of the outcome.
What is a view or preview that gives knowledge that is more than understanding? What intelligence is it that brings it about, if it is above God's own understanding and God cannot understand it? If he cannot understand it how can he know it? If he does understand it how is it above his understanding?
Here, I would like you to give me understanding so that I may understand you, or I will never know what you propose to be knowledge that is more than understanding, which means that it lacks understanding. So what kind of knowledge is it that is more precise when it lacks understanding? I do not know of a knowledge that is greater than understanding when it is fully understood. And how can we understand that there is such knowledge that is more than understanding, even the understanding of God, if God does not understand it?
Knowledge is not truly knowledge until it is understood. Where there is no understanding there is no true knowledge. I think that people today watch too much TV.
The fact that God's interaction with man has been very measured and calculated is the very reason to realise that it is fully understood.Psalms 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Perhaps understanding is not understood.
Shalom?
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45995
05/16/03 01:30 AM
05/16/03 01:30 AM
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Southwest USA
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I've enjoyed our discussion thus far, but I doubt we're going to have harmony of thought on this issue, which is okay sinse we all agree the great controversy is going to end according to God's plan of salvation. How He can know it ahead of time is probably a mystery.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45996
05/16/03 01:41 AM
05/16/03 01:41 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mike it is not meaningful for one to profess that which one does not understand, or otherwise one is professing to understand that which is supposed to be a mystery to others.
There can be no growth in such a position. I think you are worth more than that.
When has God professed that his knowledge is above, or other than his understanding?
Shalom
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45997
05/16/03 02:58 AM
05/16/03 02:58 AM
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To all,
It sounds like we are coming closer together on our understanding. When John said, "God knows all the 'what ifs' and is ready for any of them," he echoed my thoughts exactly and I sense others on this thread agree. Perhaps that is all we really know. Whether the future is actually knowable; or whether, as my cousin believes, God made Lucifer and Adam for the specific purpose of demonstrating how bad sin really is (to free Him from worrying about it arising at some inopportune time down the road); or whether God is playing it by ear, we really have no way to know.
I do feel that discussions like this are a valuable tool for learning more about God and His word.
Bob Lee
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45998
05/16/03 11:10 AM
05/16/03 11:10 AM
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Bob Lee, thanx for sharing. God is truly deep and wide and hard to know. But as a Friend and Father and Brother and Comforter He's wonderfully knowable and likeable and loveable. Thank you Jesus!
John, I wasn't trying to bow out of the discussion, and I agree that what God knows about the future is based on His perfect understanding of all things - including the future. But I'm pretty sure we perceive this topic slightly differently. I believe the future is, for God, like watching a rerun, whereas you appear to believe He doesn't know the future, but that He is really good at figuring it out one generation at a time.
Here's a passage that tells me God knew Jesus would have to die to save mankind way before our first parents sinned.
1 Peter
1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#45999
05/16/03 01:43 PM
05/16/03 01:43 PM
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quote:
What is a view or preview that gives knowledge that is more than understanding? What intelligence is it that brings it about, if it is above God's own understanding and God cannot understand it? If he cannot understand it how can he know it? If he does understand it how is it above his understanding?
John, I think you misunderstood my comments about a preview vs. understanding. Maybe it was I who misunderstood your use of “understanding” as well. I thought you meant understanding in the sense of prediction. In other words, I look at the cloud-covered sky and have “understanding” that it will rain. That is not knowing, that is piecing the available clues together and making an informed prediction. That is how I though you were using the term understanding.
I don’t believe God predicts what will happen based on the available evidence. I believe He can see actually what will happen before it happens.
So yes, He does have the ability to see what choices we will make, but to preserve freewill does not use that ability. Just like Jesus had the “ability” to save himself from the cross and wipe out everyone trying to kill Him, He did not use that ability.
So I believe God can actually see the future of all mankind, but only uses this ability in relation to the outcome of our choices once we have chosen, not to know what we will choose.
So if you meant understanding as in and actual view of the future and not just piecing together of the available evidence, then I agree with you.
I believe God understands everything, but the difference is where He gets His information.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#46000
05/19/03 08:02 PM
05/19/03 08:02 PM
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Ontario
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Thank you Mike, Lobo and Boblee for your comments. Lobo you said, quote:
John, I think you misunderstood my comments about a preview vs. understanding. Maybe it was I who misunderstood your use of “understanding” as well. I thought you meant understanding in the sense of prediction. In other words, I look at the cloud-covered sky and have “understanding” that it will rain. That is not knowing, that is piecing the available clues together and making an informed prediction. That is how I though you were using the term understanding.
I don’t believe God predicts what will happen based on the available evidence. I believe He can see actually what will happen before it happens.
Thank you Lobo for giving us understanding in what you meant. That would be a conjecture, based on a little understanding. When it comes to sinners that is the way they operate. We must not suppose that God thinks in those terms, with him is complete understanding. Where there is complete understanding there is true knowledge. As I have previously commented, the word ‘predict’ does not do justice to God’s knowledge.
then you said, quote:
So yes, He does have the ability to see what choices we will make, but to preserve freewill does not use that ability. Just like Jesus had the “ability” to save himself from the cross and wipe out everyone trying to kill Him, He did not use that ability.
So I believe God can actually see the future of all mankind, but only uses this ability in relation to the outcome of our choices once we have chosen, not to know what we will choose.
I believe God understands everything, but the difference is where He gets His information.
Well Lobo you do agree that for freewill to exist God may not foresee it. However, freewill is not something that exists just because God closes his eyes to something he can see or knows. Knowledge with God is not something that he picks up or leaves, or goes to look up somewhere, or puts on a different set of glasses, or turns on or off a different program. Knowledge/understanding is integral to God.
Knowledge/understanding is integral to the process of creation.
When God creates he establishes the scope, the function, the means and ways, the purpose, the habitat, the manner of existence, and on and on. Thus God has complete understanding/knowledge of his creation; past, present, future. To know that something will malfunction at a certain point is to mean that he created it knowingly with such an inherent flaw, or purpose. Failure to know/understand any aspect of what he made would inevitably result in malfunction sooner or later unless it happens to be recognised and corrected before it happens. These are fundamental realities of any creation. When God finished creating he beheld it and said that it was good. Everything was functioning as it was meant to be.
When God created freewill/choice, knowledge is integral part of that too.
Knowledge/understanding is integral part of all that God creates. Thus when he created freewill/choice he set the domain, the function, the means and ways, the authority and responsibility, and as has been said in order for freewill to exist, he excluded ability to know what that person will choose. He did put boundaries on it. He did set the choices between which it may choose. He did establish its authority and domain. He also established the conditions under which such free will would remain free, and under which it would loose it's freedom, and under which it may regain it's freedom. He established two choices. Hence he knows the choices possible, but not which choice will be exercised.
Did excluding ability to know what the person will choose, create the inevitability of malfunction?
The fundamental thought of malfunction in creation is not its possibility but its inevitability; that means the inescapable inability to function properly. However, that is not the case with the freewill/choice that God created. Excluding his ability to know what choice will be made did not create inevitability for malfunction because God did the following. He charged them with the authority and responsibility of the governance of the choice and made them fully capable to fulfil it. Therefore, there was no inevitability of malfunction. God further provided the boundaries of the consequences of the wrong choice and provided a way for it to be rectified and restored. In other words, it was a known and managed risk. There was accountability and hence the possibility of sin (unfaithfulness).
He established the basis by which such freewill may operate, namely faith.
Every ability must have a basis or means whereby it operates. In order for freewill to be free, its own ability or power to function must be subject to the will and at the same time empower the will. Such is the position of faith. Thus faith and the will modulate each other. The will then rules and directs faith and faith empowers the will. Faith cannot exist without freewill and freewill cannot exist without faith. (Many think that faith is just a temporary thing we exercise until we get there. That is a wrong concept of faith.) Faith is the fundamental and essential ingredient to being a Son of God. It is the forever-essential ingredient to being part of the kingdom of heaven. For without faith it is impossible to please him, whether on earth or heaven.
Faith must have a place of repose.
In order for faith to have life it must have a place of repose; that is it must have someone or something that is trusted. Whatever faith is placed in, that becomes its source. God's design for the operation of the will and faith is that the will should repose faith in God. He that effects his will and faith thus becomes faithful.
Why did God give his judicial beings a choice?
Though there were only two choices, they were magnanimous in nature. These few words only begin to unveil the principles. Faith is the essential ingredient to everything that is Godly. When God created freewill beings, his purpose was that they would all grow to the fullness and stature of Christ. That they would grow to faithfulness. All of the fruits of the spirit depend upon the true operation of will and faith. Thus God's purpose and desire was that his creation would share in his divine nature, which is faithful.
God is in the business of establishing reliable the unpredictable.
To establish; ascertain, make certain, set firm, make permanent, that which cannot be predicted. Some may think that the presence of freewill and faith would forever keep heaven at risk. However that is not the case. While freewill and faith begins at an immature place, it is the co-operative work of the person and God to nurture, develop, establish, mature and ripen the will and faith unto faithfulness. He that is faithful is steadfast, unchanging, firm, dependable, always true. He that is faithful has overcome, and the primary image of God in which he created him is fulfilled, for God is faithful. It was and is God's purpose to nurture, develop and mature each person's will and faith unto faithfulness. He searches the heart and tries the reigns. Thus God is bringing that which was a risk, to become that which is most reliable; faithfulness. 'And they loved not their lives unto death.' The security of heaven is not established on abstract knowledge but on faithfulness.Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much:
Revelation 17:14 … and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Sin was entirely unnecessary.
It was not necessary for anyone to sin in order to become faithful. Proverbs 8:22-31 shows us this. The entrance of sin did not alter God's purpose in making men faithful. It did raise the cost.
Faith being broken, the will had no more power.
Through falsehood and lies sin entered by the breaking of faith. But faith being broken, the will had no more power (for faith is the power of the will), and became subject to lower nature. Lust, desires, emotions, feelings, appetite, etc now began to rule the will, instead of it ruling them. Thus man became a slave to sin. Distrust entered and the will did not have the power to summon faith to its side. Spiritually/practically speaking, man became an animal and lost his person. It was only the contradictory element of God's spirit working upon man that prevented entire death of person
The plan of salvation provided for a way to bring faith back to life and restore its rightful place of repose, so that man may have a free will again and be a person. In this manner faith is the victory that overcomes the world
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I hope this will open up some windows of thought, but I gather there will be questions.
Shalom
[ May 20, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#46001
05/22/03 02:14 AM
05/22/03 02:14 AM
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quote:
Well Lobo you do agree that for freewill to exist God may not foresee it. However, freewill is not something that exists just because God closes his eyes to something he can see or knows. Knowledge with God is not something that he picks up or leaves, or goes to look up somewhere, or puts on a different set of glasses, or turns on or off a different program. Knowledge/understanding is integral to God.
I’m afraid it is John. God has the power and authority to remove freewill and do what he wants. Yet He has chosen to give His created being freewill. However, in doing this God had to not influence the outcome of man’s freewill choice, because then it wouldn’t be freewill. So even though God could decide to remove freewill and know what choice all will make, He chose to not do that. So yes, this is an ability God has that He is choosing not to use.
Again, this is exactly the same as Jesus ABILITY to save Himself from the cross, but CHOSE not to.
Also, God also knew that giving freewill would also create the possibility of rebellion.
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#46002
05/21/03 08:40 PM
05/21/03 08:40 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
I’m afraid it is John. God has the power and authority to remove freewill and do what he wants.
I assume that you are also saying that God has the power and the authority to stop being God. Is that your position as well? If not, why not?
Darius
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Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?
#46003
05/21/03 09:23 PM
05/21/03 09:23 PM
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quote:
I assume that you are also saying that God has the power and the authority to stop being God. Is that your position as well? If not, why not?
He has the power and authority to do what He wants. He had the power to not create the world and man, and He has the authority to break any of the rules He has put in place, because they are His rules.
So by this supreme being creating the world and man He has placed himself in the role of God. Since it is already done, He will always be the creator, but could choose to no longer be God. I’m not sure how that would play out, but He could do that.
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