Darius, I am convinced, based on the many accounts recorded in the Bible, that God is in control - not sin, not self, not Satan, not fate, not choice. God alone is in control. The outcome of the great controversy will prove God is love and disprove Satan's accusations to the contrary. God does not resort to violating our freedom to choose sin or salvation, nevertheless He will not allow the consequences of our choices (or Satan's choices) to interfere with the end results of the great controversy. We manage the choices, but God manages the consequences (even to the point of bending the laws of nature if necessary).

Nothing takes God by surprise. He's not some hapless genious wringing His hands in a flood of sweat desperately hoping nothing goes too terribly wrong. God does not doubt the outcome of the great controversy. He knows exactly how things will turn out in the end and everything He needs to do between now and then in order to guarantee that outcome. The Flood, Sodom, Joseph, Balaam, David, Judas, Jesus, Paul and the entire Revelation are perfect examples of God's ultimate foreknowledge and His proactive involvement in order to ensure the one and only correct outcome of the great controversy.

Good point. Sorry for the unintended insult. Other intelligent options have been shared. Personally though I an convinced God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV.

Yes, it would have to include our choices, otherwise how was Jesus able to foretell Peter's denial and Judas' betrayal, etc? Just because God knows the end from the beginning does not mean He violates our freedom to choose. His foreknowledge merely allows Him to know what we and He will do because He has already seen it happen. How do you explain foreknowledge and prophecy?

I would like to repeat the obvious: If it can be known by any manner or means whatever what I am going to do in the future, then I have no choice in the matter.

It's like rerunning a movie. Once the movie is recorded, the actions cannot change. The actors no longer have any choice in what they do or say because it's already done and recorded. But as many TV programs clearly demonstrate, during the original casting of the movie, the actors often depart from the script and say or do things which can be very humorous. Sometimes many takes are made of the same scene in order to eliminate those "flubs." It seems to me that illustrations should be taken from the original take, not from a recorded re-run.

Mike, you listed a number of people about whom God seemed to know their future actions. Why didn't you list Saul who was chosen by God to lead Israel but was later rejected because He turned away from God? You did list Sodom, but God said He would not destroy Sodom if ten faithful people could be found in the city. But you didn't list Jonah who was told by the same God that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. In Jonah's case, enough people were found in Nineveh that God did change His mind! You listed David whom God promised the kingdom forever, though by Solomon's time God added the disclaimer: "if you are faithful." Still later, David's dynasty was rejected completely.

To do a fair study of a subject, it seems you ought to list the converse illustrations also and explain how they fit in your paradigm.

Bob Lee

Bob, you've raised some good objections which deserve detailed attention. But first can you please explain how God was able to predict the future choices of the people I listed above? and how He is able to prophesy future events? Thank you.

Mike,

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Good point. Sorry for the unintended insult. Other intelligent options have been shared. Personally though I an convinced God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV.

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I have presented intelligent reality of how God knows and understands past, present and future, and how he foretells prophecy, and how that interplays with free will. You have never commented on what my post of May 19, 2003 05:02 PM means to you.

Very well, would you please give us an intelligent explanation how God's foreknowledge and free will operates under your system of thought. Just making statements of TV reruns is not intelligent. Would you please give us understanding.

I would be happy to answer any of your questions, after you give us your case.

Shalom