Perhaps this quote is clearer:

"The Son of God, heaven's glorious Commander, was touched with pity for the fallen race. His heart was moved with infinite compassion as the woes of the lost world rose up before Him. But divine love had conceived a plan whereby man might be redeemed. The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression. None but Christ could redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven. Christ would take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin--sin so offensive to a holy God that it must separate the Father and His Son. Christ would reach to the depths of misery to rescue the ruined race. {PP 63.2}

"Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race. But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore. {PP 63.3}

"God was to be manifest in Christ, "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. Man had become so degraded by sin that it was impossible for him, in himself, to come into harmony with Him whose nature is purity and goodness. But Christ, after having redeemed man from the condemnation of the law, could impart divine power to unite with human effort. Thus by repentance toward God and faith in Christ the fallen children of Adam might once more become "sons of God." 1 John 3:2. {PP 64.1}

"The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race."

Does this quote teach that God foresaw the fall of Adam? Perhaps not. But why then did God device a plan whereby guilty man could be redeemed from the curse of the law?

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

Did God foresee the fall of Adam?

Mike,

You need to examine more closely those quotes you presented from the pen of Mrs. White. They are saying the opposite of what you quoted them for. She says that though there was a plan to salvage the beings of any planet which rebelled against God's ways, when the unthinkable actually occurred on this planet, it took some long, hard discussion to convince God to actually implement the plan.

Bob Lee

Bob, please help me understand this quote - "From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency."

I quoted this passage to support the idea that God foresaw the fall of Adam. It also says that God foresaw the apostasy of Satan. The plan of redemption existed before sin and was implemented after much heart felt discussion when Adam fell. Jesus was slain for our sins before sin was committed by man. The point I'm trying to establish is that God foresaw sin. You seem to be saying that He couldn't know for sure it would happen, or whether it would happen with man or some other planet.

In many of His parables, Christ uses the expression, "the kingdom of heaven," to designate the work of divine grace upon the hearts of men. . . . The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race. It then existed in the purpose and by the promise of God; and through faith, men could become its subjects. God's Amazing Grace, p 23/2

Shalom

John, according to these quotes (and the others I shared recently) did God foresee the fall of Satan and Adam?

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

"The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

"The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. . . . {TMK 18.2}

It's interesting that we take a quotation that can mean several things and apply it to suit our pre-conceived ideas. In the above quotes, for instance, Daryl says, "Foresaw = foreknew." Yes, that's one possibility, but one can foresee a possibility without knowing for certain, for instance, that a burglar will raid a house on a certain date. We are told plainly in many ways that God foresaw and prepared for the possibility that sin would arise in this universe. "Foresaw" is the word Mrs. White used in the DA quote Mike used above. But in no way does that imply than God "foreknew" which beings would rebel against Him.

As for "From the beginning," which Mike quoted, from what beginning? Mike seems to assume that the phrase means "from the beginning of time." But it's just as reasonable to assume it means as soon as Satan apostatized, God knew it and when man fell, God knew that too. Nothing in the quote says or implies that God "knew" it before it happened except for our assumptions regarding "foreknowledge." Speaking of assumptions, I find it reasonable to assume that the part of that quote which says "God did not ordain that sin should exist" means just that. As John has been trying to point out, if at some time, God was all there was, then everything came from Him. If at that point He knew everything that would ever happen, then He must have built it into the universe and sin and it's consequences are all His fault. In that case, we (Satan, humans, and everybody else) are just playing out a script and the whole thing is pointless. However, since throughout the Bible God asks us to choose, even pleads with to choose, it seems reasonable to assume that we actually can choose. It's not a script, or as has been suggested, it's not a re-run. It's a genuine choice.

As for the phrase "God knows the end from the beginning." it is also assumed (without basis) that God must know all the details in between. But what about the many times God changed His mind? Are we assuming that God knew He would change His mind when Nineveh repented, for instance? Or when Moses stood up to God when He declared He was going home (Exod 33)? God says He makes plans in real time. That would be impossible if He already knew everything that is going to happen. In those plans, He sets out what He is going to do. All the great prophecies portray what God is going to do or cause to happen. Those we can count on to be fulfilled. But many of the lesser prophecies (Jonah's, for instance) are conditional. There is an implied "if" in them. Their fulfillment depends on our (human) action. God knows how He is going to end the travail of this world, but so far as I can determine, He has no way of knowing which of us will chose to join Him in His kingdom until we do the choosing.

Bob Lee

Bob Lee, in my last posted I shared three quotes which plainly say that God knew Satan and Adam would fall. And that He possessed this knowledge from eternity past. True, sin was impossible before God began creating free moral agents. But to conclude that He created sin or sinners is dead wrong (not saying you are). But Sister White wrote that in spite of His foreknowledge of sin He decided to create free moral agents anyhow and made plans to deal with the sin problem.

Hi Mike, I thought you should like the EW quote I gave. You should not ignore it, since you seem to take her words so specifically. Daryl it takes more than that to understand where you are standing in reality.

quote:

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God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. DA 22.2

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God did not ordain that sin should exist; when a creator creates something, his knowledge of future actions of his creation is a direct result of what he has created, designed, ordained; or vice versa his thoughts and knowledge is what he is bringing into existence. Thus his thought and knowledge did not create a being that should sin.

but He foresaw its existence; according to what he purposed to create God knew of the possibility of sin and what that is all about. He knew exactly what powers he was endowing his creation with. He knew what he would require of them, and knew the possibility of sin. He knew what sin is and what it would do in and to his creation, therefore the existence of sin was foreseen (generally) but not foreknown (specifically). This means that it can be, and not that it must be. Foresight is different than foreknowledge..

and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.; provision is made for something 'in case of', something possible and never for something imperative. If it is imperative then it is planned for, which means it was designed, ordained so. An emergency is an unwanted, unforeknown situation; it is not something planned or known that it is going to happen. If it is known that it will happen then it cannot be an emergency. An emergency is something that can be known possible, a risk, but never certain. Much less that it should be planned to be certain.

Further simple point is this that if you can know who will sin then you also know who will be saved. If you can know the one you can know the other. But in reality it is nonsense for then there is no such thing as sin or salvation. We have already established that God does not know who will be saved according to scripture re 'book of life'. If it cannot be told who will be saved, then it also cannot be told who will be lost. Yet it is known who 'categorically'.


Shalom

[ July 06, 2003, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]