John and Bob Lee, you two both are adding to Sister White's statements the word "possibility" whereas she does not use this word in the context of God foreseeing the existence of sin. In light of what she wrote I cannot conclude other than what I've been sharing - God knows who is going to be saved and lost, and that He has known this from eternity past. Contrary to what others might say God's foreknowledge does not rob of us our freedom to choose.

Mike,

I notice that Jonah did not use the word "possible" or "conditional" either when he preached God's message that: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be destroyed" (Jonah 3:6). But the city wasn't destroyed in forty days. Jonah even got mad when God didn't fulfill His "promise" and God had to perform several miracles in an attempt to placate Jonah. So why are you so adamant that Mrs. White's statements were unconditional rather than being possibilities God foresaw and made provisions for just like she said? You're welcome to twist her words any way you want; however, in comparing them to the many scriptural texts which say God does change His mind, does make plans, does forget, does answer prayer and react to human needs, and does call us to choose (all of which are impossible if God is just a pre-programmed computer as your model suggests), I find that God seems to have a different set of characteristics than what you seem to find.

Bob Lee

John, on page 6 July 5, 11:55am I posted several quotes which clearly teach that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and that way before their sin He formulated a plan to deal with it. Jesus was slain for our sin from the foundation of the earth. The quotes I shared cannot be construed to mean that God had no idea whether or not man would sin or that He had Jesus slain just in case they do sin. The wording is too plain to misunderstand - at least for me. I have read these statements to a dozen different people and in each case they concluded obviously she meant to say God knew man would sin and gave Jesus to die for our sin.

Mike you said,

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In any case, the final determination cannot be made before the person dies or is translated alive, otherwise - what if they backslide and refuse to repent? Does God have to unseal their destiny?

Not sinning is not unique to the sealed saints. The power of God is available now to not sin. In the case of the sealed saints (the living) God is able to say they will not sin again because He can look into the future. God can do that now before we are sealed, but for reasons that make sense to Him He does not reveal it until after they are sealed. But there is no difference before and after being sealed so far as how we resist temptation and cease from sin. The power and dynamics are the same.

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Sorry Mike, these are just some of the senseless predicaments you get into.

Perhaps if you would let those reasons that make sense to him make sense to you then you would not make such statements about his foreknowledge.

You said: "the final determination cannot be made before the person dies or is translated alive", but you also say: "God is able to say they will not sin again because He can look into the future". The two cannot coexist.

On top of that there is no change that transpires, because you say: "But there is no difference before and after being sealed so far as how we resist temptation and cease from sin. The power and dynamics are the same". Since no factors of the equation change, your above two statements are senseless.

I am not addressing here the truth or validity of your statements in relation to salvation or sin. I am only addressing them in relation to your concept of foreknowledge.

Shalom

Alas! My words failed to convey the truth. In closing, may I refer you to the words of Sister White:

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

"The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

"The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. . . . {TMK 18.2}

Mike, since you believe that God has such foreknowledge, so that he knows from the beginning who (personally and not qualitatively) will be saved and who lost, try and give this some thought.

For this purpose we will take the supposition that God knows that Mike Lowe will be, unsaved, lost.

Please tell me in your view, what impact does that knowledge have on God and his dealings with you?
Do his actions and efforts have any relevance to that knowledge?
What impact does that knowledge on his part, have on you?

You earnestly and sincery want to be saved, and God looking down sees your desire, but his foreknowledge tells him you won't make it.

How does that play out?

Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Shalom

John, thank you for reviving this thread. And I have missed you lately. Your sweet and thought provoking manner of sharing your insights are more than endearing. Welcome back, brother.

And I like your question. The way I see it, and what makes sense to me personally, is that knowing the future of my salvation is based on everything God did to save me. Knowing the negative outcome ahead of time is painful for our darling Saviour but it does not detour Him from doing His part to save me - even though He knows it will come to naught.

How many others will be saved or lost based on everything He does to save me? And what would become of things if He gave up trying to save me knowing that I will be lost in the end? Knowing the future does not change how God works in the present. Otherwise, things would not turn out the way God foresaw.

If God were given the opportunity to change the history of mankind I'm confident He wouldn't do anything different than He has or will according to His divine foreknowledge. Hind sight is 20/20, therefore God has been operating under the most favorable conditions possible. That is comforting to me as a wayfaring pilgrim trying to make his way back home. Knowing that God is doing the best He can is the fuel I need to press on.

Did Jesus not foresee the betrayal by Judas, and didn't He still try and save Judas, just as He did with Peter after telling Peter that before the cock crew he would deny Him three times?

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Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

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This also is a text that specifically tells me of the much detailed foreknowledge of God.

Daryl wrote, "Did Jesus not foresee the betrayal by Judas, and didn't He still try and save Judas, just as He did with Peter after telling Peter that before the cock crew he would deny Him three times?"

So then Daryl would you say God's foreknowing does not affect our choice even as it does not affect His desire to save us?