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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46203
04/12/03 01:04 PM
04/12/03 01:04 PM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
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quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
Then how do you explain this teaching from our Lord Yeshua?
“28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10
There is a book by Joe Crews that Amazing Facts puts out where Mr. Crews answers some difficult Bible texts. Below is the one on Matthew 10:28. I am also including the link to this page.
quote:
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.
The Greek word "psuche" has been translated "soul" in this text, but in 40 other texts it has been translated "life." For example, Jesus said, "Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it." Matthew 16:25.
But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word "life" instead of "soul" and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast is between one who can take the physical life and Him who can take away eternal life. Proof lies in the words of Jesus: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." Luke 12:4, 5.
In other words, the word "soul" here means not only life, but eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say "kills the soul." Instead he says "cast into hell." They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.
http://www.adventist4truth.com/Library/crews-answers_difficult_questions.html
You may also get this book from Amazing Facts:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/search.asp?Category=Bible+Studies&CurrPage=1
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46204
04/13/03 12:31 PM
04/13/03 12:31 PM
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Here is another good link on Absent From The Body
from which I will post both the link and quote some of what is in that link below: Absent From The Body quote:
.......in the first few verses of 2 Corinthians 5 where Paul speaks about life and death. His language has been understood by many to teach that the reward of the righteous is bestowed at the moment of death and that an immortal soul leaves the body to face an immediate reward or punishment. If this is the true meaning of Paul's words, we are faced with some serious inconsistencies within the epistles. Let us examine the verses in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 and discover what Paul actually did teach on this crucial subject......
As this is too long to post here in its entirety, I suggest you go to the link and then, if you like, respond to your thoughts on what he says about those verses here.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46205
04/15/03 09:10 PM
04/15/03 09:10 PM
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Avalee,
your explanation of Matt 10:28 is not accurate with the original Greek according to Strongs Greek concordance. According to Strongs the term “psuche” used in Matt 10:28 is used 58 times for “soul”, 40 time for “life”, 3 times for “mind”, and 1 time for “heart” in the KJV translation. So the majority of the time the term “psuche” is actually used for “soul”.
Here is Strongs' definition of “soul” –
a. “the soul”
b. “the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)”; “the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life”
c. “the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)”
These are facts that you and Joe Crews failed to mention. Now why would he say the term is used 40 times for “life” and not mention that the majority (58 times) the term is actually used for “soul”? Sounds quite slanted to me.
Anyway, these are the facts, look it up for yourself.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46206
04/16/03 12:13 PM
04/16/03 12:13 PM
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quote:
Lobo wrote:
Now why would he say the term is used 40 times for “life” and not mention that the majority (58 times) the term is actually used for “soul”? Sounds quite slanted to me.
How many times for either is not the issue, the fact that it referred to it as life those 40 times and soul those 58 times tells me that the evidence is apparent that the term is strongly used for both which says a lot to me. The 58 times doesn't negate the 40 times, or vice-versa, therefore, we need to look at the whole picture keeping in mind that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
The Bible is never slanted, however, it unfortunately isn't true of us as we seek out those things that backs up our belief system rather than openly searching for what is Bible truth. Unless we are searching for Bible truth without any bias, we probably will never see that truth, or question any texts that seemingly contradicts our belief system.
I know a person who wouldn't accept the truth about the doctrine on the state of the dead until he finally looked at the Greek. He had studied Greek as part of his university studies. His findings resulted in his accepting of the fact that when a person dies, that when the soul dies, it remains in the grave until the resurrection day.
He saw from the Greek that the Greek word for soul referred to the body, that the Greek word for spirit referred to breath, and that the body (soul) + the breath (spirit) represented a living soul (body). Take away the breath (spirit) and you have a dead soul (body). Thus it makes perfectly good sense when the Bible said that every living soul (body) in the sea died.
By the way, the breath of life (spirit) came from God and gave life, and that same breath (spirit) returned to God when that life ended.
When we look at it that way, the Bible is in harmony from Genesis to Revelation on this subject of the dead.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46207
04/16/03 03:02 PM
04/16/03 03:02 PM
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Daryl, first let me say that I agree with your assessment of Matt 10:28 in that having the term used for “soul” 58 times and “life” 40 times doesn’t really tell us what the usage was in this specific text. However, it does tell you that at least 58 times the term was used to indicate something other than “life”. According to strongs that indicated the definitions I outlined above. As you can see, that definition supports my position that the soul is more than just “life”.
So while we are talking about what the bible states and consistency in scripture, you should think about the 58 times strongs indicates that the term “psuche” was used for “soul”, and that the definition for “soul” used those 58 times meant “an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death” (Strongs).
This means that scripture indicates the presence or existence of a “soul” 58 times that you state doesn’t exist. Think about that?
So if you are trying to make a consistency case for the definition of “life” used 40 times, that idea fails in light of the fact that it was used 58 times to indicate something that you don’t think exists.
So you need to ask yourself why scripture uses the term “psuche” 58 times to indicate a soul “essence” that you don’t believe exists?
So I challenge you to use that ability to “search the bible for truth without bias” you mentioned to resolve the conflict your definition of the “soul” has with what scripture indicates.
You see, I don’t doubt that the term was used to indicate “life” 40 times, but you think the definition of the term soul, as indicated by strongs, doesn’t even exist.
So no, this doesn’t prove that Matt 10:28 means “soul” as defined by Strongs. But what it DOES prove is that the “soul”, as defined by Strongs, does exist and was used 58 times.
So while you have won the battle over Matt 10:28, you have lost the war in regards to the existance of a "soul" as denfined by Strongs!
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46208
04/16/03 05:03 PM
04/16/03 05:03 PM
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Where did I say that the "soul" doesn't exist? I believe that the soul referring to the body does exist.
Remember that the Bible also says in relation to the soul, from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust. That is what happens to all souls, human or otherwise at death. They exist and eventually become once again the dust of the earth.
Also, with the definition of the soul meaning life, how do you get around the fact that every living soul in the sea died? And did those dead souls in the sea soar off either into heaven or hell? I believe they went into a watery grave.
In a sense, we all go to hell at death, if you think of hell as the grave, be it in the earth or the water.
If you would only let the Bible speak to you, if you would only let the Bible interpret Itself, you would see this and possibly other things in a different light.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46209
04/16/03 10:34 PM
04/16/03 10:34 PM
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quote:
Where did I say that the "soul" doesn't exist? I believe that the soul referring to the body does exist.
I stated that you don’t believe the definition of “soul” as stated by Strongs. You definition is body + breath of life, but that is not what Strongs states. THAT is what I stated.
quote:
Also, with the definition of the soul meaning life, how do you get around the fact that every living soul in the sea died? And did those dead souls in the sea soar off either into heaven or hell? I believe they went into a watery grave.
Come on Daryl, I hoped we could have a rational and logical discussion. The term “soul” in that text is only translated as “soul” in ONE bible translation the KJV. No other translations make that error. So if you want to base your beliefs on a translation, that’s fine. I however, need more sources that agree to truly understand the truth. So the idea that the original language meant “soul” and not “things” or creatures is suspect.
Also, you still have not answered my question related to Ecc 3:21, “if there is nothing unique about the spirit (or breath as you say) of a human, why doesn’t it also return to the ground like an animals?”
quote:
If you would only let the Bible speak to you, if you would only let the Bible interpret Itself, you would see this and possibly other things in a different light.
Frankly, I used to believe as you, but the bible did speak to me and I could not ignore the conflicts as you seem to be doing. So I feel I’m being very honest when I say that I can’t in good faith believe that nothing happens at death other than people just lay there. That idea is not consistently support in scripture and not what any Jews, modern day or historical, believe. Yet, Jesus never addressed this issue and made many statements that do not support the “death as a sleep” idea.
So when you talk about letting scripture speak, I at least acknowledge the problems, which you seem to happily ignore.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46210
04/16/03 10:46 PM
04/16/03 10:46 PM
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quote:
Lobo asked:
Also, you still have not answered my question related to Ecc 3:21, “if there is nothing unique about the spirit (or breath as you say) of a human, why doesn’t it also return to the ground like an animals?"
A thought just came to me. The spirit or the breath of the human returned to God as God intends to breathe that same breath or spirit back into man at his resurrection, whereas the breath or spirit of the animals return to the ground as God will not be resurrecting the animals at His second coming.
Also, what makes you think Strong's definition is correct? If a definition by man goes against Bible truth, then the definition by man, in this case Strong's, would be suspect.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46211
04/16/03 11:05 PM
04/16/03 11:05 PM
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I am a first generation Seventh-day Adventist Christian. Before that I was a Baptist and solidly believed that when you died that you either went to heaven or to a tormenting hell.
When I was challenged, I searched the Bible for the truth in this matter, and I was convicted and led by the Holy Spirit that totally reversed what I once believed.
When I read from the Bible that a person's very thoughts perish at death rather than continuing on immediately in some energized fashion either in heaven or hell, I had to rethink what I had blindly believed.
When I read that the dead praise not the Lord, it further spoke to me on the truth of the state of a person while dead and in the grave.
Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep in which He referred to death as a sleep. What is the definition of a dead person? Why didn't Jesus say that Lazarus was now in heaven praising the Lord? And if Lazarus was in heaven, then why did Christ bring him back from a wonderful heaven to this suffering planet quaranteed from the universe on account of the sickness of sin?
Have you honestly looked at every piece of Scripture on this subject? I did, and it turned my thinking and belief on this subject in the opposite direction.
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