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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46222
07/10/03 02:16 AM
07/10/03 02:16 AM
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Bob, I understand your position, but you just have not been able to explain why the devil impersonating Samuel would say:
“Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
Please notice that the devil here is perfectly supporting what God had told Saul in the past and what God wanted Saul to know. So there is no refuting the fact that whoever this “spirit” was, was IN FACT, doing God’s work or supporting God’s plan.
So please explain why the devil would be supporting God’s plan? If you can’t your conclusions are suspect because the fact is that the devil has never supported God’s work or plan. If this was truly the devil he would have stated something different to try and mess up God’s plan, yet he did not, why?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46223
07/09/03 06:31 PM
07/09/03 06:31 PM
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The devil would obviously and gleefully support anything that God says that is in line with the devil's own desires, such as was in the case of what would happen to both Saul and his son.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46224
07/10/03 10:26 AM
07/10/03 10:26 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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I agree with Daryl. Further, we have 1 Kings 22:22, 23 and 2 Chr. 18:21, 22 where a demon speaking through false prophets brought about the death of Ahab, a result that in God's mind was a just punishment for his deeds. In both cases, the king listened to a demon, and that resulted in his death. Yet that death could still be looked upon as a judgment of God. Similarly, quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
God isn't in cahoots with the devil. Yet God's judgments coming upon sinners because they choose rather to listen to lies rather than truth is a common occurence. quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46225
07/11/03 02:12 AM
07/11/03 02:12 AM
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quote:
In both cases, the king listened to a demon, and that resulted in his death. Yet that death could still be looked upon as a judgment of God.
And yet in this case Saul had already not followed God’s instructions and the “demon” was reminding him of that fact. So in reality, all the “demon” in this case was doing was reminding Saul that he had been disobedient to God.
Now what you and Daryl both don’t seem to understand is that this “demon” also made a prophecy of future events. He stated that Saul and his sons would be dead the next day (verse 19). And guess what, what the “demon” prophesied about Saul came true, 1 Sam 31:3, 6.
And also guess what, when someone prophesies and it comes true, THAT is the biblical sign that they are a true prophet, Deut. 18:22.
So what you are telling me is that not only did the devil or demon support God by telling Saul he had been disobedient to God, but that the devil or demon was also a true prophet according to scripture?
Wow! Seems to me that you guys are digging a hole here that you are not going to be able to get out of.
Now you have to explain why the demon would support God’s plan and tell Saul he had been disobedient, and also how a demon would be able to predict the future by his or Satan’s power?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46226
07/11/03 10:52 AM
07/11/03 10:52 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
And also guess what, when someone prophesies and it comes true, THAT is the biblical sign that they are a true prophet, Deut. 18:22.
Sure, that's one sign, but that's not the only one. False prophets do get it right sometimes too. quote:
Deut. 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:...
Even today there are occultists and new agers that are correct in some of their predictions, just like the above passage warns about. quote:
So what you are telling me is that not only did the devil or demon support God by telling Saul he had been disobedient to God, but that the devil or demon was also a true prophet according to scripture?
Neither Daryl nor I said such a thing. quote:
Now you have to explain why the demon would support God?s plan and tell Saul he had been disobedient, ...
I already did. The devil was trying to drive Saul to despair.
He hates even his own. He leads them into sin, patting them on the back, and then he shows them their sins in all their magnitude, driving them to despair. quote:
... and also how a demon would be able to predict the future by his or Satan?s power?
It was a self-fulfilling prophesy. By making Saul so distraught, it incapacitated this 70 to 80-year-old man so that he couldn't effectively lead the army of Israel the next day. Without a good leader in good spirits, the Israelites couldn't fight the battle as well, and thus lost miserably.
When you have 411 Bible texts that support the idea that death is a sleep, you have to look at this passage differntly than you would if you had never read any of those 411 texts.
And even among those who believe that the dead are not dead, you still have folk like John Gill who thought "Samuel" was Satan. Here is another quote from another commentary: quote:
To his imagination, even though it was Satan, who to blind his eyes took on him the form of Samuel, as he can do of an angel of light. (1599 Geneva Bible Footnotes)
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46227
07/12/03 02:39 AM
07/12/03 02:39 AM
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quote:
It was a self-fulfilling prophesy. By making Saul so distraught, it incapacitated this 70 to 80-year-old man so that he couldn't effectively lead the army of Israel the next day. Without a good leader in good spirits, the Israelites couldn't fight the battle as well, and thus lost miserably.
Bob, I have enjoyed our discussion here, but I have to say that your argument related to this text is uncharacteristically weak. I’m confident that any non-biased reader of this post would see that your rationalization of this text is very weak support.
You are basically saying that the devil impersonated Samuel and told Saul the truth that God wanted him to hear because he (devil) wanted to make him depressed. You are also saying that the devil was able to very specifically and accurately predict what would happen to Saul by shear luck. In addition, you are also indicating that the bible test of a true prophet that I indicated is not enough either, even though it was specifically used for the test of some bible prophets.
Wow! I don’t know what else to say about this. Maybe that you should rethink your position. There are other ways to look at this text and still support your Sadducee view of death. You could have stated that this was an angel of God impersonating Samuel to deliver God’s message. That would have been much more feasible and consistent with scripture.
Anyway, as it is clear to me that you really don’t have any reasonable explanation for the devil impersonating Samuel in this manner, I don’t think there is anything else to say on this topic.
Maybe we should just move on to other texts?
Since you believe death is a sleep, can you please provide me some proof that death is a sleep for the mind/soul/spirit? In my understanding, scripture only indicates that death is a sleep for the body, not the soul or spirit.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46228
07/11/03 03:26 PM
07/11/03 03:26 PM
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Lobo,
Just as Jean Dixon had done, so the devil does; they both make an educated guess as to what will happen. The only difference is that the devil and his fallen angels (demons) as invisible beings is actually there consequently knows what is happening, what is being planned, and in the case of Saul, the condition of both Saul and his army and leaders and the condition of the enemy army and its leaders. The devil and his demons can, therefore, make an excellent guess as to what will happen, and can also communicate their guess disguised as Samuel, as was done in the case of Saul's approach to the Witch of Endor.
This will obviously become more apparent when you realize that the dead are dead and don't exist in any ofrm of a conscious state either in heaven or in whatever concept you may have of hell.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46229
07/11/03 04:26 PM
07/11/03 04:26 PM
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Daryl, with all due respect, I don’t believe God leaves things up to guesses and Jean Diction has never and could never predict such a specific thing as for Saul and his sons to die on the very same day. To predict something like that with millions of variables is outside the realm of coincidence.
However, like I previously stated, you can believe that it was actually and angel of God giving Saul the bad news and still maintain a Sadducee view of death and the soul.
So I guess I will ask you, why could this have not been an angel of God?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46230
07/12/03 02:29 AM
07/12/03 02:29 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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My views are not Saduceean. They denied a resurrection. I do not.
We can move on to other texts. But keep in mind that the view I gave is one endorsed by competent biblical scholars who do not agree with me on the subject of death.
As far as the soul and spirit go, what must first be done is to determine what the soul and spirit is. The Greek and Hebrew words are nephesh, psuche, ruach, neshamah, and pneuma.
For starters, take a look at Num 9:6, 7, and Haggai 2:13. In these verses, the Hebrew word for "soul" is translated "dead body." There is no separate word for "dead" in these texts.
There are situations like this all through the Bible. For example, "man became a living soul." But that's not the first time the Hebrew for "living soul" appears. We also have it in Gen. 1, translated "living creature," and referring to animals and sea life.
So, in light of the above, where do you think the souls of animals go when they die?
Numbers and Haggai. That's a pretty good spread. Thus in Haggai's time "soul" meant about the same that it did in Moses' time.
And John in Rev. 16:3 calls the whales "living souls." So from the first Bible writer to the last Bible writer, "soul" had the same meaning.
As far as the spirit goes, Eccl. 3:19 states emphatically that mankind and animals have the same ruach. Thus, even as they can both be called "living souls," there is no difference in their spirits.
Peter, the alleged first pope, said in Acts 2:29 and 34 that David never went to heaven. I asked a priest about this. He told me that that was the Hebrew way of looking at it, and I guess he meant that that is the Bible way of looking at it.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46231
07/14/03 04:31 PM
07/14/03 04:31 PM
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Bob,
the term Psyche—is also used many times to indicate an immortal soul, Matt. 10.28; 16.26; 22.37; Luke 2.35; 12.19; 21.19; Acts 2.27; 4.32; 1 Thess. 5.23; Rev. 6.9 --to cite but a few examples. If the word was ever intended to mean something other than what the Greeks themselves understood it to mean, then the NT would SPECIFICALLY define that, since it was written for them.
Next, notice that the breath of a man is stated as different than his spirit:
“12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.
13 Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15 all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust” Job 34
Also, Psa. 104.29; 146.3,4; Job 34.14,15; Gen. 7.21,22; Eccl. 3.19-21; 9.3-10 are related to the effects of death ON THE BODY, but where do these texts say anything about the soul?!!
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