Marcel,
thank you for your post, I totally agree. In fact, I actually do not believe there is enough evidence to support a doctrine either for or against the soul living separately from the body. My only point in addressing it here was to make the point that if we are honest we would all agree that it is really not as clear-cut as some my want to believe.


Daryl,

with all due respect, I believe your statements are an example of what is wrong with Adventism today. We are not saved by our knowledge, but by our relationship with Christ. Knowing that the soul does or does not live on in spirit after death does not allow us to be venerable to “deception”. The possibility of being deceived implies that we are saved by not being deceived through our knowledge of the “correct” doctrine.

Now since scripture indicates that the state of the dead is not part of the gospel and not a requirement to be saved, this “knowledge” or doctrine has no bearing on our salvation.

So what I’m saying is that if we have a relationship with Jesus we cannot be deceived because it is Jesus who makes our decisions, not us by our own “knowledge”.

So what you are implying is that if we believe in the life of the soul after death that even though we do have a saving relationship with Jesus that we still can be lost because of this inaccurate belief. Sorry my friend, but that is just not true.

Now having stated this, let me clarify what many believe in relation to this issue. You have the misunderstanding that people who believe in life after death also believe that the soul/spirit can visit this earth as well. That idea I believe comes from EGW, but is extremely inaccurate.

Even Luke 16 indicates that the dead cannot return to earth or even know what is going on here. So in reality, even those who believe in life after death would not be deceived by your example of Hitler.

Now I have tried on this forum to not ascribe any beliefs to SDA’s that they don’t openly profess, so please do others the same courtesy.

Also, as I have stated, I think implying that knowledge can prevent someone from being deceived is a falsehood and implies we are saved by our knowledge, which is another falsehood. The devil has more knowledge and understanding than all of us combined and if it really was about being deceived and our own knowledge, we would all be lost.

So what we know, or think we know, has little bearing on our salvation other than the gospel of Jesus Christ and that relationship.

My concern is that a Christian listening and being deceived by an evil impersonator pretending to be their deceased Christian brother or sister, husband or wife, could result in their making wrong choices that could affect their relationship with Jesus Christ and consequently their eternal fate in the same way that the devil impersonating an angel of God tried to tempt Jesus into sinning during his 40 days in the wilderness where He was sent to be tempted of the devil. Look what happened in the case of King Saul who thought he was communicating with the deceased prophet Samuel who in reality was an evil angel, possibly Satan himself, impersonating Samuel. If he had repented before God instead of seeking to communicate with Samuel through the sinful medium of the Witch of Endor, both he and his son may have been spared, and Israel may have been victorious against their enemy.

Wrong beliefs can lead to wrong decisions which can lead to eternal consequences such as in the case of King Saul.

Lobo,

I read your last post to Daryl. I can't say you put things as strongly as you did to me before, but you ought to consider that sometimes you just have your facts wrong.

quote:

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1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

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Saul did die because he sought counsel from the dead. That wasn't the only reason, but it most certainly was one of them.

It might be helpful if you switch from using a paraphrase to using a translation. The word in Lk. 16 is "bosom," not "side," from what I can tell. And I think if you look up all the verses that use the word translated "dead" in Is. 14:9, you'll find that your paraphrase's use of the word "spirits" is questionable. The typical word for "spirit" doesn't appear in the text.

Moreover, quoting a verse that maybe seems to say something different doesn't answer my question of how to interpret the texts that put the body in hell at death. I'd like you to explain to me what you think those texts I've cited say.

Regarding Abraham's bosom being in heaven, we have a contradiction here. "Samuel" came up from the earth, not down from heaven. On what basis are you putting Lazarus in heaven if Samuel wasn't there?

Would you agree that Mat. 8:11 is talking about after the resurrection, not after death?

[ July 19, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]

The truth is that the Bible is unclear about the state of the dead. Sure there are more passages supporting souls sleep than passages supporting soul immortality. That does not mean that the greater number of passages proves the former correct. Remember that the Sabbath is also not mentioned much in the NT.

Judaism doesn't even ponder upon the matter much. According to Jews what happens after death is God's business.

Should we not apply the rule that we must be certain about issues on which the Bible is clear but tentative on issues where the Bible is unclear?

I tend to beleive in souls sleep but won't argue the issue with somebody who believes in soul immortality. It is after all not a matter of salavation is it?

There are likewise more passages that say we are justified by faith than ones that say we are justified by works, but the fact that James appears to say we are justified by works does not put the matter in doubt. We simply must explain the unclear texts by the clear, on every subject.

The fact that we have as many as 411 verses that support the idea of death being an unconscious sleep, and only a handful that folks use to support the contrary position, is significant.

Even on the subject of the Sabbath, there are more texts in the NT that speak of its sacredness than speak of Sunday's sacredness. Indeed, there are no texts that speak of Sunday's sacredness, or even that say that Sunday was a regular day for worship.

On the matter of death the Bible is not unclear, as in Ps. 146:4 and Eccl. 9:5, 6.

It can definitely be a matter of salvation, as it was for King Saul.

Also, Rev. 16:14 suggests that the final deception will have a spiritualism component. There we see spritualistic movements arising out of Catholicism, Protestantism, and paganism. The preoccupation with Marian apparitions would be the movement coming out of Catholicism, and the New Age movement, with its channelling of dead ascended masters, would be the movement coming out of paganism.

What passages to you make the matter less than clear?

This morning I was reading in 1 Samuel where Saul had gone to the medium (witch,spritist etc) to conjure up Samuel, and noticed a couple of things as follows:

1. We have a witch raising the dead when God can only do such things.

2. "Samuel" told Saul that he and his sons would die which seemed to be the case since Saul pierced himself with his own sword and his armorbearer followed.

3. Did Israel fall as was mentioned by "Samuel"

I will continue reading this evening but am curious since the Bible mentions that the Israelites fled from the Philistines.. I may have gotten off track but those were some of the points I noticed, and the point I am trying to find out if this was an evil spirit or not, and find out if what had been told to Saul had come true in regards to Isreal falling?

God Bless,
Will

[ July 21, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Will ]