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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46272
08/02/03 04:25 PM
08/02/03 04:25 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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To answer your question Daryl, 'where are the dead?' the souls of the righteous dead are pictured as resting underneath the shelter of the bronze altar in God's temple in heaven, Revelation 6:9: quote:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held . . .
The souls of the wicked dead are kept in some other place, awaiting judgment.
Although it seems clear that the righteous dead rest in an unconscious state until they are given their reward, it is not as clear from scripture that the same is true of the wicked. I'm out of time but I may come back later to write more.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46273
08/03/03 12:25 AM
08/03/03 12:25 AM
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Active Member 2013
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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How interesting, Mark. When the souls of the martyrs are told to "rest yet" for a season, that could easily be understood to mean "sleep on."
In Mat. 26:45 and Mk. 14:41, the word for "rest" is associated with sleep. It doesn't have to refer to sleep, but I'm not sure what else it would refer to in Rev. 6:11 and 14:13.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46274
08/06/03 07:43 PM
08/06/03 07:43 PM
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quote:
By "destroy" I meant "kill" or "die." Saul did not die before Samuel's death. The demon was trying to bring despair upon Saul, and he accomplished his purpose.
Correct, but he did that by accurately predicting the future. Remember, doing this is a sign of a true prophet or certainly someone who is connected with God (angel, etc.).
You still have not been able to explain why the demon would tell Saul the truth, the outcome of which was to support God’s plan. Also, how a demon can predict the future? Both of these facts indicate that this was not a demon.
So it was either Samuel himself or an angel of God there to prophesy and support God’s plan.
quote:
Point out which texts you want me to address, and I'll do so. I've addressed each one you've brought up so far, as far as I know.
I mean you refuse to honestly admit that the issue is not clear-cut and there are texts that literally indicate the opposite of what you are stating, like these texts:
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28
“5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” Luke 12:5
Here we have two texts that indicate that something can happen to the soul or some part of you AFTER your body is dead.
“18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, “ 1 Peter 3
“6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.” 1 Peter 4:6
Here we have two texts that indicate that the dead were preached to, while they were dead, and who did the preaching, which He was dead.
“1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” 2 Cor 5
“But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;” Phil 1:23
Clearly Paul felt that when he died he would go directly to heaven to be with God. Notice that the term used for “body” in 2 Cor 5:6-8 is “soma”, which means a literal human body or corpse.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46275
08/07/03 10:37 AM
08/07/03 10:37 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, I don't recall if you already addressed this: quote:
Deut. 13:1, 2 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Seems this passage acknowledges that false prophets inspired by Satan may just happen to get it right sometimes. Thus the devil could correctly "predict" Saul's demise the next day by uttering a self-fulfilling prophecy: By goading Saul to despair, Saul was kept from being his best, which brought on defeat.
But I think all this has already been said, perhaps more than once. quote:
I mean you refuse to honestly admit that the issue is not clear-cut ...
When one has about 411 texts supporting a given position, it does seem clear cut. How many texts do you have?
RE: Mat. 10:28. I believe you already said that it would be reasonable to define "soul" as "life" here. Your exact comments were:
quote:
Honestly, I think this is reasonable. However, as we have been discussing, the term "soul" had more than one meaning and it is probably not possible to know exactly what Jesus meaning or usage was in this context.
If it isn't possible to know what Jesus meant, then you really can't use this text to say that the dead are conscious. In fact, the text doesn't even address that point.
RE: Lk. 12:5. The same is true about this verse, since it says the same thing as Mat. 10:28.
RE: 1 Peter 3:18, 19. I haven't ignored this one, for I don't think you've brought it up to me before. I don't recall you bringing up any of the following texts either.
Look at it closely. It says that Jesus went and preachED to those spirits BY the Holy Spirit. Jesus by the Holy Spirit preached through Noah to those lost souls before the Flood took place. The text doesn't say that He preached to them after they had died. Nor does it say that Jesus personally did the preaching.
1 Peter 4:6. This text is even clearer, in the English. The gospel was preached, past tense, to those that are dead, present tense.
RE: Php. 1:23. Paul made it plain when he would be with Christ in 1 Th. 4. He said that at the second coming the dead would rise, and the living would be caught up in the air, and "so we shall ever be with the Lord." That is the point at which Paul thought he would be both with Christ and conscious.
RE: 2 Cor. 5:6-8. Before I can address this text, I need to ask you how you see it: Is the eternal house in heaven, the heavenly dwelling or tent, a body? If so, then do we get our heavenly bodies at death or at the resurrection? If at the resurrection, then this text is not saying that we are conscious in death. If, on the other hand, we get our new bodies at death, then there would be no need of a resurrection.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46276
08/08/03 02:20 AM
08/08/03 02:20 AM
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quote:
Seems this passage acknowledges that false prophets inspired by Satan may just happen to get it right sometimes. Thus the devil could correctly "predict" Saul's demise the next day by uttering a self-fulfilling prophecy: By goading Saul to despair, Saul was kept from being his best, which brought on defeat.
If you will recall, the Jewish nation had already been taken from Saul by God. So the outcome of Saul leading Israel into battle had already been destined to failure regardless of it Saul “was his best” or not. However, the text you posted does seem to indicate that a false prophet can have accurate predictions, so that does support the idea that it could have been a demon.
quote:
When one has about 411 texts supporting a given position, it does seem clear cut. How many texts do you have?
I don’t believe it’s an issue of volume, but one of clarity. Saying that the body sleeps at death 411 times does not address the soul. So having texts that specifically state things or clarify the specifics is what matters.
quote:
RE: Mat. 10:28. I believe you already said that it would be reasonable to define "soul" as "life" here. Your exact comments were:
Yes, reasonable, but if you are honest you would agree that it would also be reasonable to define the soul here as a person’s essence in existence outside their body.
quote:
RE: 1 Peter 3:18, 19. I haven't ignored this one, for I don't think you've brought it up to me before. I don't recall you bringing up any of the following texts either.
Look at it closely. It says that Jesus went and preachED to those spirits BY the Holy Spirit. Jesus by the Holy Spirit preached through Noah to those lost souls before the Flood took place. The text doesn't say that He preached to them after they had died. Nor does it say that Jesus personally did the preaching.
Bob, you are rationalizing. The texts states: “being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison” NKJV
Jesus was “made alive” by the spirit. That is what it states. It was not the holy spirit that preached to the spirits.
In any regards, even if it was the holy spirit, how do you explain the holy spirit preaching to the spirits of people who died in the flood?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46277
08/09/03 01:30 AM
08/09/03 01:30 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
Yes, reasonable, but if you are honest you would agree that it would also be reasonable to define the soul here as a person's essence in existence outside their body.
No, I would not agree unless there is some explicit verse that must be taken that way. When you have explicit verses that use "soul" to mean "dead body," "life," animals, and fish, you need an explicit verse that uses "soul" in the manner you suggest. quote:
Bob, you are rationalizing.
Read the text again. It says that the Spirit that quickened Jesus was the Spirit that went and preached, past tense.
So if it wasn't the Holy Spirit that did the preaching, what Spirit was it?
The KJV capitalizes Spirit there because those translators recognized that Peter meant the Holy Spirit.
Here's what the immortal-soulist, Baptist scholar John Gill has to say about it: quote:
The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, ... "in hell", see #Re 20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote:
Of course, I wouldn't agree with every thought he has here, but even he could see that Peter meant that the Holy Spirit went and preached in the days of Noah.
When Peter uses the word "Spirit" in 1 Pet. 1:2, 11, is that not the Holy Spirit?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46278
08/09/03 01:34 AM
08/09/03 01:34 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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I hope you caught the fact that the preaching was to the "spirits" before they died, not after. John Gill and I agree on that one.
That's the typical explanation for that passage by someone of my persuasion. I didn't come up with that. Get any material that deals with the few texts that seem to contradict the 411, and that is what it will say about that passage.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46279
08/11/03 03:03 PM
08/11/03 03:03 PM
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Bob, I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation. You are obviously not open to any other position even though I have just given you texts that you cannot explain scripturaly.
So if you cannot even admit to the fact that it is not a clear cut issue, I don’t see any reason to continue.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46280
08/16/03 12:55 AM
08/16/03 12:55 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Why not prayerfully read through your post? It did not make much sense.
I did Scripturally explain the passage from 1 Peter. I assume that is the only one you are referring to.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46281
09/17/03 08:00 PM
09/17/03 08:00 PM
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I was reading this text in relation to another post, but I though it had bearing here:
“16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.” Romans 8
Now if we do not have a spirit that is distinct from our body, how can our spirit bear witness? In fact, if our spirit is just “breath”, how can it do anything?
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