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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46252
07/21/03 06:50 PM
07/21/03 06:50 PM
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quote:
Posted by Bob Pickle:
Saul did die because he sought counsel from the dead. That wasn't the only reason, but it most certainly was one of them.
Excellent point, Bob, to which I noticed that Lobo didn't reply to. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
I would add to that the fact that his going to the witch instead of going to God in tears of repentance may very well have sealed his fate.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46253
07/21/03 09:53 PM
07/21/03 09:53 PM
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It’s clear from reading the passage about Saul and the witch of Edor that he sealed his fate from not obeying God. This was not related to his visits with the witch, but to his disobedience to God before Samuel’s death. Remember, before Samuel died he gave Saul the bad news that he was disobedient to God. In fact, if you read 1 Sam 15 you will see that Samuel told Saul that the kingdom would be taken from him in this passage, long before 1 Sam 28. In fact, Saul tried to repent and asked forgiveness, yet God would not accept it (vs 24-26).
So all the conjecture on the post about this issue is contrary to what is actually recorded in scripture. So here are the facts:
1. Saul was punished for not obeying God related to conquest of the Amalekites (1 Sam 15:17-19), not the witch of Endor.
2. Samuel gave Saul this bad news first in 1 Sam 15:23, 26.
3. God rejected Saul’s attempt at repentance in 1 Sam 15:24-26.
4. The spirit of Saul told Samuel the truth of what God did and was going to do; so the spirit predicted the future (1 Sam 28:19), something that the devil cannot do.
5. As Will pointed out, the devil cannot raise the dead; so this spirit was actually Samuel, or it was a heavenly angel there impersonating Samuel to help God’s plan.
So in reality, it appears that the truth of this story is much different than many want to believe.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46254
07/22/03 01:12 AM
07/22/03 01:12 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, it's like I said at what is presently the bottom of page 3, a post I assume you must have missed: quote:
Lobo,
I read your last post to Daryl. I can't say you put things as strongly as you did to me before, but you ought to consider that sometimes you just have your facts wrong.
quote:
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
Saul did die because he sought counsel from the dead. That wasn't the only reason, but it most certainly was one of them.
Could you please comment on this Scripture?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46255
07/23/03 02:06 AM
07/23/03 02:06 AM
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Bob, I guess I did miss that post. However, I never meant to imply that Saul asking guidance from a witch was ok with God or did not contribute to his demise. My point was, and that you have confirmed, is that Saul’s fate had already been sealed long before he went to the witch. So while that act was just another of his sins against God, God had already rejected Saul long before the witch incidence.
“24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the LORD's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD ."
26 But Samuel said to him, "I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the LORD , and the LORD has rejected you as king over Israel!" 1 Sam 15
So to say that Saul was rejected by God because of the witch would be inaccurate. It would also be inaccurate, as Daryl suggested, that Saul could just God to God and repent, because that is exactly what he tried to do and it was rejected by God.
So visiting the witch was one of the reasons Saul died, but it was only one and it was actually added on after Saul had already been rejected by God.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46256
07/22/03 09:14 PM
07/22/03 09:14 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
4. The spirit of Saul told Samuel the truth of what God did and was going to do; so the spirit predicted the future (1 Sam 28:19), something that the devil cannot do.
5. As Will pointed out, the devil cannot raise the dead; so this spirit was actually Samuel, or it was a heavenly angel there impersonating Samuel to help God’s plan.
So in reality, it appears that the truth of this story is much different than many want to believe.
It might also have been the devil impersonating Samuel. As for this being a prediction of the future, it is possible that it was a prediction on the same level as when I predict that I will go to work tomorrow...
/Thomas
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46257
07/22/03 10:18 PM
07/22/03 10:18 PM
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quote:
It might also have been the devil impersonating Samuel. As for this being a prediction of the future, it is possible that it was a prediction on the same level as when I predict that I will go to work tomorrow...
When has the devil ever supported God’s plan, becuase that would be exaclty what he did here?
Does the devil have the ability to raise the dead?
You may know your going to work tomorrow because you have control over that. Now predict if I’m going to work tomorrow and you will be closer to what actually occurred.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46258
07/23/03 06:56 AM
07/23/03 06:56 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
When has the devil ever supported God’s plan, becuase that would be exaclty what he did here?
Does the devil have the ability to raise the dead?
You may know your going to work tomorrow because you have control over that. Now predict if I’m going to work tomorrow and you will be closer to what actually occurred.
About the devil supporting Gods plan, well, I dont know, for what I know, it might have been God predicting the devils plan without interfearing in it...
The devil does not have the power to raise the dead, but I didnt claim he could do that either, think of it rather as the devil going to a costume party at the wiches house dressed as samuel...
You are right that I could predict going to work becourse its within my controll, just like the devil predicted the death of saul and his family becourse it was within his power to slay them unless God would protect them, which He obviously didnt do...
/Thomas
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46259
07/23/03 10:44 AM
07/23/03 10:44 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, If you look carefully at 1 Sam. 15:20-23, you'll see that Saul made no attempt at repentance. He denied that he had done anything wrong when told by a prophet of God that he had. He only changed his tune after sentence had been handed down. That's not real repentance. And even when he did change his tune in vs. 24, he passed the buck. That's not real repentance. And his motivation for changing his tune was his public image, according to vs. 30. That's not real repentance. 1 Sam. 28:6 says that Saul enquired of the LORD, but the LORD didn't answer. And so he resorted to the witch. 1 Chr. 10:14 says: quote:
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Thus this text tells us that there was more that Saul could or should have done in 1 Samuel than he did. Repentance would have been one of those things.
Even after Saul was rejected as king on his return from fighting the Amalekites, the Holy Spirit came upon him, and he prophesied.
I think Daryl's original point is extremely valid. Those that don't believe what the Bible teaches about death will be in danger of being deceived by demons impersonating the dead.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46260
07/23/03 03:18 PM
07/23/03 03:18 PM
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quote:
I think Daryl's original point is extremely valid. Those that don't believe what the Bible teaches about death will be in danger of being deceived by demons impersonating the dead.
Then you believe we are saved by our knowledge and not by our relationship with Jesus. If we have a string relationship with Jesus is it possible that we can be deceived and lose our salivation while Jesus is in charge our life?
Your and Daryl’s position is one of works in that we are in control of our life and not Jesus. You also imply that it is we who fight with Satan and not Jesus.
I feel very sorry for the both of you. Sounds like the Laodicea church because you have a form of Godliness but seem to be denying it’s power in favor of your own power or knowledge.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46261
07/24/03 12:47 PM
07/24/03 12:47 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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I don't appreciate you accusing Daryl and me of believing that we're saved by any other means than Jesus. quote:
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Only Jesus saves. Knowledge doesn't. Works don't. But lack of knowledge can make it easier to take one's eyes off of Jesus. And be deceived. And be destroyed.
Those who reject the knowledge that the Bible gives regarding death are in grave danger. quote:
2 thess. 2:10, 11 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
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