Thank you, Bob, for an excellent reply to Lobo's post and unfounded accusation, which without your reply, I may have edited out.

That Bible text clearly answers to Lobo's accusation.

Knowledge begats relationship as does this Bible text:

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Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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We could say that faith comes by knowledge and knowledge by the word of God.

But the one Bob provided is very clear on this point.

I suggest you put your questions in the form of a question, rather than a statement. It would have been much better if you had asked, "Are you and Daryl saying ..." And your last paragraph was not a question at all.

The rest of your last post does not appear to specifically deal with Hosea 4:6 or 2 Thess. 2:10, 11. You have not provided any other meaning for these passages, and thus the point still stands. Hosea 4:6 says plainly that people will be lost because of lack of knowledge. There is something about knowledge of truth that aids us in maintaining faith in Christ.

Regarding the amount of knowledge children can have, I have 4 kids, the youngest of whom is 5. If you can ask them where the dead are, and they can tell you.

As far as 2 Thess. goes, that passage is referring to more than just the rejection of the truth of being saved by the blood of Jesus. It is also referring to the Sabbath, and I'll explain how.

Christians used to believe in Creation, that the pope is the antichrist, that Christ is the prince who makes the covenant in Dan. 9:27, and that Christians ought to keep the 10 Commandments. Today, many professed Christians now believe in evolution, that the antichrist is yet future, that the antichrist is the prince of Dan. 9:27, and that the law was nailed to the cross. Why the big change in their theology?

Going with evolution is an escape mechanism to avoid the Sabbath. If the world wasn't created in six days, then the Sabbath loses its meaning. If the antichrist is future, then the Sabbath is not referred to in Dan. 7:25. If it's the antichrst instead of Christ in Dan. 9:27, then we can get rid of a text that says that Christ only abolished the sacrifice and oblation, not the Sabbath. And if we nail the entire Decalogue to the cross, we can forget about the 4th precept of that code.

These strong delusions that God has sent to those who refuse to believe and love the truth are preparing the world for the lake of fire.

The rejection of Bible truth by many professed Christians is thus detrimental to their relationship with Christ. You cannot have a meaningful relationship with someone if you refuse to believe (and in the above example, do) what they say.

[ July 25, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]

Lobo, here's a second post.

Did you ever share your thoughts on why "Samuel" came up from the earth if the Lazarus in the parable was really in heaven?

I can't answer your question because I don't accept the premise upon which that question is based: I don't believe Satan impersonated Saul only to help out God. Yet I did much earlier refer you to where a demon offered in a heavenly council to go and deceive Ahab by speaking through his prophets.

So are you suggesting that Samuel was resurrected? How did his body get from his grave over to Endor, a considerable distance?

So you don't think that Lk. 8:55 is referring to the breath of life?

Do you have a verse that says that the soul and spirit do not sleep at death, that the whole person is not unconscious in death? How do you explain Pr. 19:15, where a "soul" or nephesh is said to be hungry, if the "soul" is not the body itself in that particular verse?

Your statement regarding the soul or spirit not sleeping implies what you have yet to demonstrate from Scripture: that there is a conscious entity apart from the body called the "soul" or "spirit." What you need to find is a verse where one of the Greek or Hebrew words in question is used in such a way that one of the alternate definitions of these words (like "life") will not do.

In Ahab's day, the demon was a lying spirit in order to deceive to convince Ahab to go to battle. The demon in Saul's day didn't have to deceive in that way in order to destroy Saul.

Let's examine the texts you refer to:

1. Luke 8:54-55 Can easily refer to the breath of life.
2. Matthew 10:28 Can easily refer to "life," one of the meanings of "soul."
3. James 2:26 Can easily refer to the breath of life.
4. 1 Kings 17:21,22 Must mean "life," since even your translation rendered "soul" as "life."

Notice that not one of these texts says that the soul or spirit is conscious after death. Not one says that the sort of spirit or soul that you presently believe in is not asleep.

So do you believe that Eccl. 12:7 means that even the spirits of the wicked in OT times went to heaven? Eccl. 12 doesn't say that it is only talking about the spirits of the righteous.

What is the difference between a disembodied spirit and a disembodied soul?

Eccl. 9 does not say that the dead only don't know anything about what's going on down here. But assume for a moment that you might be right. Do the angels in heaven know what's going on down here? Does God know? Why then don't the departed know? Are God and the angels keeping it all a big secret from them? Or are they spending all their time up in heaven sleeping? Is that why the spirits of the departed don't know what God and the angels know regarding things happening under the sun?

Paul, and other Bible writers, did repeatedly say that the dead are sleeping. I would think they might as well sleep in the grave than spend all their time sleeping in heaven.

Your translation's rendering of Jn. 11:33 is incorrect.

God made our brain in our physical bodies to have thoughts and emotions. Those that have had brain damage are impaired in this regard. If thoughts and emotions weren't based in our physical bodies, then brain damage would have no effect on us.

Why does Rev. 6 picture the souls under the altar? Because the blood of the sacrifices was poured at the base of the altar, and the life or soul is in the blood. Thus in Rev. 6 we have the life of the blood of sacrificed martyrs crying out to God, just like Abel's blood cried out to God.

Do you think that Abel's blood literally was talking? If not, then Rev. 6 should not be taken literally either.

Some scholars, says John Gill, have thought that the dead things of Job 26 are metals or minerals. As far as "deep anguish" goes, such a translation is a bit interpretative.

As far as Is. 14 goes, which do you really believe? Do you believe that the spirits go to grave at death, or do you believe, as you said earlier, that the spirit goes to God at death? It can't go to both places, can it?

By "destroy" I meant "kill" or "die." Saul did not die before Samuel's death. The demon was trying to bring despair upon Saul, and he accomplished his purpose.

We must base our faith on God's Word. In doing so we need to ask ourselves what the Word is saying, and to do that we need to sometmes go back to the original manuscripts if a translation is in question.

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... you refuse to.

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Point out which texts you want me to address, and I'll do so. I've addressed each one you've brought up so far, as far as I know.