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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46416
06/28/03 08:02 PM
06/28/03 08:02 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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There are many verses in the Bible that give clear irrefutable evidence that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, by looking at the 3 different names anyone is able to tell that there are 3. Interestingly though we find in Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth., and in Colossians 1:16 we read the following: quote:
16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
If we know that God created the heavens and the earth, and we read that all things were created in Him (Christ) we know that Jesus is God, the Son of God who created the universe.
The point I am trying to make is that who was present Christ or The Father or the Holy Spirit? All 3 were involved in creation yet the Bible does not separate them individually, but tells us that In the beginning God..
Now according to those who choose to believe that Christ at one point did not exist as is seen with anti-trinitarians there is not 1 verse in scripture that proves otherwise.
Christ has always existed, and Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He is also God.
quote:
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
quote:
Hebrews1:8,9
8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
God The Father calls His Son God as well.
In Acts 5:4 we see the Holy Spirit being referred to as God, but this is not to be confused nore distorted to mean that The Holy Spirit is A God since it seems that many anti-trinitarians enjoy believing that is the case which is why they choose not to believe in the Trinity (Tri-Unity)
quote:
Acts 5:4
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
In all sincerity this is what I need to know and to understand that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit teaches us whatever He hears from God, so I cannot say that one exists and the other doesn't since my limited finite mind only knows that it is throughr Christ that we are reconcilded to God.
If someone has a more scolarly approach to this then please do post.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46417
06/29/03 01:50 AM
06/29/03 01:50 AM
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The United Pentecostals have an interesting twist to their non-Trinitarian beliefs in that they believe in Jesus only in that Jesus is God who manifests Himself as God the Father and God the Son. I think they believe that the Holy Spirit is only a force in the same way that the Jehovah Witnesses do.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46418
06/29/03 03:15 AM
06/29/03 03:15 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I was doing abit of reading on a Pentecostal denomination known as Oneness. They are non-trinitarian and believe that Jesus is The Father, and this is because they believe God is a Spirit. Here is a quote from one of them. quote:
Colossians 2:9 says in regards to Christ, "For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." That means we believe there is one God in the Godhead, Jesus.
This actually adds to my confusion in regards to prayer.. I have heard many many times people pray to Jesus, and address Him as Father, but in the Bible the disciples saw Jesus praying and when He had finished praying He was wasked by the disciples if He could teach them how to pray. Jesus showed them and this prayer starts off with Our Father which art in heaven...
Also Jesus Christ mentions that if anyone askes The Father in Jesus name that He would do it:
quote:
John 14:13,14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
Also
quote:
John 16:26-28
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
I can clearly understand that the Father has given us eternal life through Jesus Christ who is our Advocate in heaven.
There also could be something else which cannot be explained so clearly and that is we as people trying to understand the very nature of God. However what I do notice could be how the word One is used, and it it could be the same one to descibe what happens between husband and wife as mentioned in the Bible:
quote:
Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
The word one according to Strongs concordance is as follows:
quote:
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
The Oneness Pentecostal believe that there is one God, and rightly so. However could the word one be describing a unity? After all The Father sent His only begotten son to come and die for all of our sins. We also see in 1 John 5:7
quote:
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
It also seems that believing in the Trinity is a form of polytheism which means:
quote:
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
: belief in or worship of more than one god
Yet we as SDA's worship one God. We ask The Father these things in the name of Jesus.
So with that said how does everyone else feel and what are your thoughts?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46419
06/29/03 04:42 AM
06/29/03 04:42 AM
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May I suggest a way around the problem of "three Gods" being "one" that makes sense to me. Start by noting that there is nothing in scripture which is necessarily outside this solar system. Assume then, that Jesus/JHVH/Jehovah is the ONE God spoken of in the Bible and that He is the God of this Earth. He appears as such in both the OT and NT. There would, of course, be other Gods in other parts of the universe, and one over all of them as hinted in many texts (e.g Psalm 82:1). As suggested by the plural of Genesis 1, this Being probably assisted our God (Jehovah) in the construction of this Earth.
But now sin enters this world. This Being we call God the Father sets up residence near by in order to be of assistance to our Jehovah. Especially at the time Jehovah came to this planet as Jesus. But at that time, another problem arose. As Jehovah, He probably had capabilities which He lost when He was born as Jesus and therefore needed further help. For this, another member of Gods volunteered to help Him. It is this Being, Which we call the Holy Spirit and Who apparently had not previously been to Earth (John 16:7 ff), which Jesus sent here to do what He Himself had done in OT times.
So as far as Earth is concerned, we still have ONE God, Jesus/Jehovah; but there are two other Beings Who are working with Him in the salvation of humanity. They are both Gods in every sense of the word and since all three are presently working together for our benefit, it is fitting for us to be baptized in the name of all three. Also, since Jesus is still partially handicapped by being human, it is proper to make our requests to God the Father in the name of Jesus as Jesus told us to.
Bob Lee
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46420
06/29/03 01:32 PM
06/29/03 01:32 PM
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The Bible makes it clear that there is only one God and is none other than the one and only God, Jehovah. God in the Old Testament in the Hebrew is Elohim which is plural meaning that the word God consists of more than one person. That is why it reads in the creation account to make man in our image rather than in my image. quote:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
I just noticed something interesting. It says our image in verse 26 but says his own image in verse 27.
Why didn't it also say our own image in verse 27?
Getting back to the point of this post, John 1 makes it very clear that the God of this Bible created all things.
quote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This means all things which includes more than the creation of this planet we refer to as Earth.
The Bible makes it clear that there is only one God, that there is no other God beside Him.
quote:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
That settles it for me. I will not even entertain the speculation of there being a family of gods out there.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46421
06/29/03 01:44 PM
06/29/03 01:44 PM
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quote:
.......there is nothing in scripture which is necessarily outside this solar system.
I beg to differ as there definitely are things in the Bible which is outside this solar system, with Job being one of them:
quote:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Who were the sons of God in verse 6?
Where did Satan claim to have come from?
If Satan claimed to have come from the Earth, which he did, then where did the sons of God come from? My educated guess would be that the sons of God came from other worlds, obviously outside our own Solar System.
Where did this meeting take place? I don't know exactly where ,however, again my educated guess is that it took place outside our Solar System.
And, where does God dwell? Obviously outside of our Solar System.
The Bible, therefore, speaks of things well beyond our Solar System.
In other words, in our search for truth, the idea of other gods out there creating their own worlds with their own god, etc. would not hold any water of truth in it and would be contrary to our search for truth about the truth of the Trinity in this topic.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46422
06/29/03 01:56 PM
06/29/03 01:56 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Will, quote:
Now according to those who choose to believe that Christ at one point did not exist as is seen with anti-trinitarians there is not 1 verse in scripture that proves otherwise.
One point I tried to make is this, and correct me if I'm wrong: Any "Trinitarian" who by saying this means that Christ is not begotten is actually not a Trinitarian, since the classic definition of Trinitarianism includes both the idea that Christ is eternal and that Christ is begotten.
Likewise, any "anti-trinitarian" who maintains that Christ was begotten of the same substance as the Father is possibly more Trinitarian than most Adventists. Thus it is hard for me to see why they are making such a big fuss about it all.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46423
06/29/03 01:59 PM
06/29/03 01:59 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Daryl,
I once had a Bible study with a UPC minister. We had some good times, and out of those good times I will share with you one isolated conversation.
At some point he fired off and told me, "You got the Trinity doctrine from your momma!"
I replied, "She's not my momma. She's your momma. That's where you got Sunday, the dead aren't dead, and the wicked are going to roast throughout eternity."
To be honest with you, I felt at the time that his explanation of the Father, Son, and Spirit sounded more Catholic than mine.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46424
06/30/03 02:02 AM
06/30/03 02:02 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Will, quote:
The Oneness Pentecostal believe that there is one God, and rightly so. However could the word one be describing a unity?
When speaking of how the twain become ONE flesh, the word is used in exactly that sense. Two persons, the man and his wife, are to be one. In the Godhead we have three rather than two.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46425
06/29/03 10:44 PM
06/29/03 10:44 PM
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Bob,
Do you remember what Bible texts this UPC minister used to back up his belief?
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