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What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46406
06/27/03 01:02 AM
06/27/03 01:02 AM
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There seems to be those who believe in the Trinity and those who believe the Trinity to be a false doctrine.
Which is it?
Is the Trinity a true or a false doctrine?
What does the Bible say?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46407
06/27/03 10:19 PM
06/27/03 10:19 PM
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Daryl, this is a very interesting topic, one I confess I don’t know a lot about. I know that Jews feel the trinity concept is against scripture because of these texts:
See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39
"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10
"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6
"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
Yet the New Testament states that we should baptize people in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19). “In the name” means as a reprehensive of. So if the spirit and Son were not also deity, it would not be correct to baptize anyone in their name.
So the OT & NT seem to conflict on this issue. So anyone with more info please feel free to step in.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46408
06/27/03 11:52 PM
06/27/03 11:52 PM
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Not only the Jews are divided over this, but also throughout the Christian religion in which some denominations believe one way and others believe the other way.
For example: The United Pentecostal Church doesn't believe in the Trinity whereas the Baptist Church does believe in the Trinity.
One thing I find interesting is that those denominations that do believe in the Trinity don't even see the Trinity in the ssame light.
The best way to tackle this doctrine of the Trinity is to look at it from the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
I am hoping that others will also participate in this search for truth study of the Scriptures on the subject of the Trinity noting that this word Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible, however other words such as Godhead, etc. are found there.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46409
06/28/03 12:43 AM
06/28/03 12:43 AM
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I just thought of something. The Bible consists of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, therefore, we should be able to compare what is said in the Old Testament on a subject to what is said in the New Testament on that same subject. Take the subject of creation. Who created this world?In the Old Testament we read: quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In the New Testament we read:
quote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here it says that Jesus Christ (the Word, the Light) created the world.
In the Old Testament it says that God created the world, whereas in the New Testament it says that Jesus Christ created the world.
Unless Jesus Christ is God, we have an apparent contradiction do we not?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46410
06/28/03 01:56 AM
06/28/03 01:56 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
Isaiah 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
One problem we have is that sometimes someone will define things a certain way, going beyond what is clearly revealed, and then condemn everyone who doesn't see it exactly as he sees it.
The Catholic doctrine of the Trinity, which has been around quite a while, teaches that the Son came forth or was begotten from the Father, and that the Spirit proceeded forth from both the Father and the Son. It also teaches that since God is outside of time, the processions are outside of time, and thus all 3 have always been.
It seems to me that if someone denies either that Christ is the begotten Son of God, or that He is eternal, then he is rejecting the classic doctrine of the Trinity, which might or might not be all right, depending on what the Word says.
The idea of the processions was so important that a major dispute arose somewhere around the 5th century over whether the Spirit proceeded from just the Father, or from both the Father and the Son.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46411
06/28/03 01:59 AM
06/28/03 01:59 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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The Adventist Church's baptismal vows, I believe, say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal. Some self-proclaimed anti-trinitarians object to this. Yet Ellen White did repeatedly call Christ the "eternal Son," and thus if both the Father and the Son are eternal, there is nothing wrong in calling them co-eternal.
Micah 5:2 seems to put both ideas together: Christ's goings forth have been from eternity.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46412
06/28/03 02:10 AM
06/28/03 02:10 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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We have a number of self-proclaimed anti-trinitarians around here. I've heard them say things like this: Christ was made of the same material or essence as the Father. What is remarkable about such a thought is this: At Nicea there was a big dipute over whether Christ was of the same, similar, or different essence or substance as the Father. The same essence view won out, and is part of the official doctrine of the Trinity. And yet these same folk don't like the Council of Nicea! I can't seem to find a quote I remember, about whether we should even discuss God's essence. This quote sounds similar to what I remember: quote:
The question of the essence of God was a subject on which [Christ] maintained a wise reserve, for their entanglements and specifications would bring in science which could not be dwelt upon by unsanctified minds without confusion. In regard to God and in regard to His personality, the Lord Jesus said, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). Christ was the express image of His Father's person.
We need to be careful lest we quote:
2 Peter 2:12 ... speak evil of the things that [we] understand not
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46413
06/28/03 02:28 AM
06/28/03 02:28 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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I've got a chart of 41 SOP quotes spanning 1896 to 1910, covering every year but 1899 and 1909. These quotes either call the Spirit the third person of the Godhead, or the Father, Son, and Spirit three powers, dignitaries, or persons. On whether Christ is eternal or not, I have 9 quotes from 8 years, spanning 1878 to 1906, all calling Christ eternal. The 1878 quote, from RH 8/8/1878, is particularly helpful. That was published about 55 years before it is claimed by some that the Adventist Church officially went trinitarian. quote:
The unworthiness, weakness, and inefficiency of [the minister's] own efforts in contrast with those of the eternal Son of God, will render them humble, distrustful of self, and will lead them to rely upon Christ for strength and efficiency in their work. (RH 8/8/1878)
Some folk postulate that after James died, EGW's writings were tampered with, and trinitarian language was inserted. Yet this 1878 quote poses a problem for such a theory. James was still kicking in 1878, but neither he nor Ellen were in Battle Creek on 8/8. The only remote possibility along such lines that I can see is that Uriah Smith was really a closet trinitarian, and that he altered Ellen's article without her consent, and that the Whites never found out what he did. But this idea doesn't work, for Uriah Smith is one of the main "anti-trinitarians" that today's "anti-trinitarians" like to quote.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46414
06/28/03 02:33 AM
06/28/03 02:33 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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I don't think all Jews have always been "anti-trinitarian." Leo Odom wrote a book on Jewish beliefs about Michael, and some Jews way back went so far as to call Michael or Metatron a second Yahweh.
It isn't hard to come up with such an idea. I was chatting with a JW about this recently. We looked at Gen. 18 and 19. Two angels and Yahweh met with Abraham. But since the NT tells us that no one has seen God at any time, then the being called Yahweh in this passage must have been Christ.
Gen. 19:24 even speaks of two Yahwehs. One, the Son, is on earth calling fire down upon Sodom. The other, the Father, is still heaven, from whence the fire falls.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Trinity?
#46415
06/28/03 02:39 AM
06/28/03 02:39 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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One more thought: quote:
Mat. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
In the Greek as well as the English, "name" is singular. It has the definite article. There is one name for all three.
"Father," "Son," and "Holy Ghost" all have the definite article too, in both Greek and English. If there were three manifestions of only one person, as the United Pentecostals teach, I would think that there wouldn't be any definite articles here. It seems that the definite articles indicate that these three are all distinct persons, one from another.
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