Sorry, I don't remember. That was 1989 or 1990.

Daryl,

You suggest that the sons of God in the book of Job came from outside this solar system. That's a possibility, of course. But what makes you so certain that they didn't come from Venus or Titan or from the bottom of the ocean on our own planet? As for the meeting place, ditto. And it's certainly not "obvious" that God dwells outside this solar system. It's a good guess, but the Psalmist who wrote the thirty-third Psalm tells us that "From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth" (vss 13, 14). If you keep in mind that the Bible equates heaven with the firmament or atmosphere, it can be argued that even God's home isn't very far away.

By the way, it seems you are putting an unnecessary expansion on "all things" (John 1:3). The Bible is about this planet, not the universe or even the rest of the galaxy. "All things" would probably refer to all things on this Earth, not necessarily anything beyond it.

Actually, I wasn't really looking for discussion, I was simply suggesting that within the framework of scripture, there are many ways to resolve the dilemmas we encounter. If you are happy with your explanation of the trinity, fine. I'm simply saying I found another paradigm which I find more satisfactory in case some may be uncomfortable trying to resolve three Gods into one.

Bob Lee

Hi Bob,

I think all the fuss has to do with non-trinitarians not wanting to believe that Jesus Christ has always existed, and came forth from the Father in the sense that He was brought forth as our Savior not brought forth as in created, BUT there have been many a lengthy discussion on the very way the words came forth, or brought forth could actually mean, so non-trinitarians think that Christ was at some point not there. To me that is a serious error in belief, but to each his\her own. Well thats about as far as I go without getting to confused.

God Bless,
Will

Bob Lee,

How does your idea of other gods fit with this verse that I am quoting again here?

quote:

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Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

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The LORD makes it very clear that there is no other God or gods. There is only one God and He as the LORD is that only one God.

Also, seeing that you state you are a Seventh-day Adventist in your profile, I suggest you read and see what EGW has to say about this. I could quote some things here, however, we would be straying away from this topic.

Boblee,

quote:

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There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. (DA834)

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I suppose we could call Venus and Titan unfallen worlds, but I don't think that was the author's intention.

I see Bob Pickle with my grateful thanks went ahead and posted an EGW quote which in my mind settles it as a Seventh-day Adventist who is a staunch believer in the inspiration of her writings.

Now back to the main topic.

Will,

You are right that this topic can be confusing.

It is my understanding that the way you explained "brought forth" as being "brought forth as our Savior" is not Trinitarian, the claims of anti-trinitarians notwithstanding. While what you suggest could be correct, it is not part of classic Trinitarianism.

Some Adventists have speculated that Christ became the Son at His incarnation, and was not the Son prior to that except in anticipation. Yet this does not seem to be correct, for Nebuchadnezzar recognized Christ as the Son of God in Daniel 3.

quote:

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The instant Adam yielded to Satan's temptation, and did the very thing which God had said he should not do, Christ, the Son of God, stood between the living and the dead, saying, "Let the punishment fall on Me. I will stand in man's place. Give him another trial." (BEcho 5/21/00)

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Daryl,

You quoted Isaiah 44:6 and asked how my "idea of other gods fit with this verse." As I read down through Isaiah 44, I see that God is comparing Himself to idols that are made by man. God seems to make no reference to whether other Gods exist BEYOND this planet. God does not seem to be addressing that question.

I might ask the reverse question: If the God of Isaiah 44 is indeed the only "God," why do we feel free to accept two other Beings as Gods? If we accept the Holy Spirit as God, Rev 1:4; 3:1; and 5:6 seem to indicate that there are at least six more Spirits in heaven that we could call "Gods." For that matter, Asaph in Psalm 82 seems to say that humans are gods (v 6) and Jesus used that statement to declare that the Jews were gods (John 10:35). Clearly there is something lacking in our understanding of the deity. Personally, I fully believe in the trinity. And I believe all components of the deity (however many or few there may be) have always existed and always will. When considering how to make sense of the contradictory statements we have regarding the trinity, I've considered the analogy of a corporation which acts as a single unit yet is composed of many individuals. The family is another example of several people acting as a unit. I've also considered the model of a river which divides around an island to become two or more rivers. But each of these models presents problems which don't "compute." So I developed the concept which I tossed out for consideration in a previous post. Maybe it will give someone a new way of resolving the problem. As I'm sure all are aware, though, it has its problems too. For one thing, we've been so used to thinking of God being everywhere that it's hard to accept C. S. Lewis' concept of a different God for each inhabited planet. Maybe it's not necessary to go that direction. One day, soon I hope, we can ask God directly for the answer.

Bob Pickle

I appreciate your quote from Desire of Ages, but it doesn't really address the question of God's domain. It only tells of the universal rejoicing that took place in heaven when Jesus returned from His travail on Earth.

As for "Venus and Titan," it's highly unlikely that any other planet in this solar system is inhabited, though Mrs. White was allowed to visit beings on a planet which looked very much like Saturn. As we understand it, human life would be impossible there, but who knows what God may have done on other worlds. Anyway I am inclined to think other inhabited planets would be found around stars other than our sun.

Bob Lee

Boblee,

The point of that quote is to suggest that the sons of God in the first part of Job were representatives of unfallen worlds, which would then give us something in the Bible that is outside of our solar system.

That was a point you made, "that there is nothing in scripture which is necessarily outside this solar system." The first part of Job would be an exception to your statement.

Central to the issue of the trinity is the status of Jesus. Is He God or a different level of deity? Being the “Son of God” would indicate that He is lesser than God. Also, others have called God their “father” in scripture, which means that they also would be “sons of God”, i.e. Psalms 2:7. So being the son of God would not necessarily indicate deity.

Next, when we look at Jesus as the Son of God it also seems to indicate that He was created and not in existence forever:

Colossians 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Heb 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father "? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

These two texts seem to indicate that Jesus was created prior to creation and that Jesus created the world through or by God’s power, not His own.

Just some observations.