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Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46478
07/04/03 04:16 PM
07/04/03 04:16 PM
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Lobo made an interesting statement in one of his posts in another topic, therefore, I thought I would create a separate topic in relation to that statement that I am quoting below: quote:
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY LOBO:
I would like to also go on the record as saying that I also believe that the larger non-believing Israel has a role in prophecy as well; the role of Babylon. But that is a discussion for another time.
I hope Lobo will elaborate on this in this topic.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46479
07/05/03 06:22 AM
07/05/03 06:22 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I would like to say that I have not seen in the Bible that Babylon is a physical place such as in the OT, but in prohpecy it is spiritual Babylon. God tells Isaiah the following about Babylon (physical): quote:
Isaiah 13:19-22
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in [their] pleasant palaces: and her time [is] near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.
Saddam Hussein tried to rebuild it and apparently he was unable to.
Babylon is the papacy(spiritual).
quote:
Revelation 17:4-6
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46480
07/05/03 03:27 PM
07/05/03 03:27 PM
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I would like to suggest that Babylon includes catholicism but that it also involves apostate protestantism and spiritualism. Babylon therefore symbolizes the three fold union which opposes the 3AM's during the MOB crisis.
Revelation
16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
"In Revelation 17 Babylon is represented as a woman --a figure which is used in the Bible as the symbol of a church, a virtuous woman representing a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church. {GC 381.1}
"The woman (Babylon) of Revelation 17 is described as "arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness:...and upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." Says the prophet: "I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." Babylon is further declared to be "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." Revelation 17:4-6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome. And no other power could be so truly declared "drunken with the blood of the saints" as that church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation. {GC 382.2}
Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." Ezekiel 16:14, 15. {GC 382.3}
Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with "the kings of the earth"--the state churches, by their relation to secular governments; and other denominations, by seeking the favor of the world. And the term "Babylon"--confusion--may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories. {GC 383.1}
Besides a sinful union with the world, the churches that separated from Rome present other of her characteristics. {GC 383.2}
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46481
07/05/03 06:46 PM
07/05/03 06:46 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Very true Mike. I have a question though when you refer to apostate protestantism which protestant means protesting the roman catholic church. Does it mean that protestants are returning to the papal system? Also what does MOB mean?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46482
07/05/03 09:03 PM
07/05/03 09:03 PM
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If this will help, I can quickly answer the MOB question.
MOB = Mark Of the Beast.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46483
07/05/03 10:10 PM
07/05/03 10:10 PM
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Will asked - "Does it mean that protestants are returning to the papal system?" Personally I don't think so. Sister White refers to a "new and more exalted system of religious faith" which will be composed of catholics, protestants and worldlings alike.
"The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves and are ready to join with them, and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC 588.3}
Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46484
08/08/03 04:59 PM
08/08/03 04:59 PM
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Here is how scripture reveals who Babylon really is:
“8A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries." Rev 14
Her = a church (Eph 5:25-27)
Adultery = being or following false doctrines (2 Peter 2:1)
“"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird. 3For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." 4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;” Rev 18
My People = true believers in Jesus from the Jewish nations (Matt 2:6, Heb 8:10)
“"With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. 22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again. 23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray. 24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth." Rev 18 (Also Rev 17:4-6)
The voice of the bridegroom and bride have been heard in this church = Jesus is bridegroom (Matt 9:15), Bride is the church (Rev 19:7, Eph 5:25-27)
Jesus voice was never “Heard” to the gentile Christian church because His mission was to Israel alone until Peter’s dream in Acts (Matt 10:6, 15:24). So this means the Jewish church.
Has the blood of all the saints and prophets killed on earth = Israel (Luke 11:47-51)
So using scripture to literally interpret scripture we see that the Jewish nation or Israel is Babylon.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46485
08/09/03 05:06 AM
08/09/03 05:06 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Lobo, Help me understand this because I don't quite understand. According to what you have posted from scripture and opinion are you saying that it was not until Peter's dream (the one with unclean animals) that the message of Christ was to go to the Gentile's? Now in regard's to Babylon being Isreal that I also do not understand since Babylon will never be rebuilt. In Revelation 17:5 is a woman which represents a church, and this woman is a worldly one. quote:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
quote:
Rev 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rome is known as the city on 7 hills, and here is where the woman sits.
Taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
quote:
From the Holy Land the circle widens to Rome, as a centre of pilgrimages. St. Chrysostom, as has been shown, expressed his vehement desire to visit it. And in the early church histories of Eusebius, Zosimus, Socrates, and others, notices are frequent of the journeyings of celebrated princes and bishops of the City of the Seven Hills.
you can read the whole thing
here , so I don't think it is literal Israel as in the Israel that is sitting in the middle east.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46486
08/10/03 07:37 PM
08/10/03 07:37 PM
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quote:
Help me understand this because I don't quite understand. According to what you have posted from scripture and opinion are you saying that it was not until Peter's dream (the one with unclean animals) that the message of Christ was to go to the Gentile's?
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Understand that this means Christianity, not Judaism. Gentiles could become Jews at anytime in the past after Moses if they made the commitment and kept the torah law. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about non-Jewish convert gentiles being given the chance to become Christians. Peter and the other disciples did not really realize that this was God’s plan for all gentiles until Acts 10:34 when Peter stated that “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism, but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right”.
So as far as the gospel officially going to the gentiles, this was the time.
quote:
Now in regard's to Babylon being Isreal that I also do not understand since Babylon will never be rebuilt. In Revelation 17:5 is a woman which represents a church, and this woman is a worldly one.
I assume you say “worldly” because of the prostitute statements, right?
If so, that is not what be a prostitute church means. Israel has been called this before by God and it is clear that this is Israel for that very reason:
“"Their deeds do not permit them to return to their God. A spirit of prostitution is in their heart; they do not acknowledge the LORD . 5 Israel's arrogance testifies against them” Hosea 5:4
“ When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD” Hosea 1:2
So clearly this is not about worldliness but about rejection of God.
quote:
you can read the whole thing
here , so I don't think it is literal Israel as in the Israel that is sitting in the middle east.
Sounds like you are ignoring all the evidence because of preconceived ideas? How do you explain Jesus clearly saying that Israel would be held responsible for ALL the blood of the prophets and saints since the BEGINNING of the world and Rev saying the very say thing about Babylon?
Also, Israel has had seven kings, which would account for the mountains”.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46487
08/10/03 10:10 PM
08/10/03 10:10 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Lobo, This is a very good topic indeed, and I look forward to reading what you have to say. In regards to the gospel going to to the world which would also include gentiles and any other race creed and color after the dream Peter had is not correct. The Biblical support for this is found in Acts 8:4 quote:
Acts 8:4
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
quote:
Strongs Concordance:
Abroad
διασπείρω
diaspeirō
dee-as-pi'-ro
From G1223 and G4687; to sow throughout, that is, (figuratively) distribute in foreign lands: - scatter abroad.
So we know here that the word was being preached to other nations Samaria being one of them as an example illustrated showing the Word of God going out to non-Jewish people.
We also find in scripture that Phillip baptized an Ethiopian who was a eunuch.
quote:
Acts 8:34-38
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
The dream Peter had was God telling him not to consider Gentiles to be filthy and unclean since Peter felt that he shouldn't socilaize with Gentiles.
quote:
Acts 10:28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
quote:
Acts 10:34
34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
His perception was "straighted out" by God, and the Lord had work for him to do.
So we know that The Word of God was preached to everyone after the stoning of Stephen because he was preaching to the Jews who rejected his evengelism and basically stoned him. That was the end of the alloted time for the Jews in which they rejected The Word of God which was written by Isaiah:
quote:
Isaiah 42:6
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Babylon will just never be rebuilt its in the Bible, and it has been attempted by man, and this just will not be happening. Babylon according to prophecy is spiritual Babylon, money,greed,false doctrines, wickedness etc etc. There is only one person on this earth who is called "Holy Father", and this stems from the papal system, and it is her teachings that have gone into many "churches".
Remember that in Revelation we are being told what has,will,and is actually happening and that is the persecution of God's people, the slaughter of martyrs for their belief in Jesus Christ.
The dark ages resulted in the slaughter of millions because people refused to accept a falser doctrine. We see the puritans who left England to a new land because they were persecuted for their beliefs in testimony of Jesus Christ, and refused to accept a force fed, false belief.
We are His people, and saying that we are not is not true because Christ died for all of us not just a specific race. I know of some Jews who actually think they will get into heaven by doing good, but refuse the fact that Christ is the Son of God (anti-christ?), The Messiah. In fact I was told by a friend of mine who went to a synogogue and started to talk to a rabbi, and he asked the rabbi about Jesus Christ, and the rabbi said "He was probably a good guy, but not the messiah"...
In the book of Daniel we know of only 1 system that will speak blasphemy against God, and blasphemy in the Bible means being God, and there is no other system that we see today that does such a thing.
quote:
Daniel 7:25
7 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
So by these teachings and a changing of laws and times which were done by the papal system we see that these same false doctrines will seep into and overcome many denominations and a "new". We see the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday by the Catholic church by the authority of who? Not by God thats for sure, but they (papal system) have made the claim (false one) that they can change whatever they want.
you said:
quote:
Sounds like you are ignoring all the evidence because of preconceived ideas? How do you explain Jesus clearly saying that Israel would be held responsible for ALL the blood of the prophets and saints since the BEGINNING of the world and Rev saying the very say thing about Babylon?
It is important to understand from what the Bible says that Babylon will never be rebuilt, and what Babylon represented will be the same in the end times, and spritual babylon represents wealth, lusts, greed, commercialism and all sorts of ills.
Remember that satan has been corrupting the hearts of men to commit murder and all sorts of atrocities. It is not coincidence that satan is attempting to stifle The Word of God from being preached to the world since after that does happen then the end will come after all he has but a short time. There is no ignoring of evidence on preconceived notions when it says so clearly in the bible and is a part of prophecy.
What we see unraveling before our eyes is written in The Word of God. Study and stay in the Word because time is short, and I know you are a God fearing man as are all of us, so we need to sharpen each other, and keep on point.
quote:
Proverbs 27:17
27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
quote:
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
God Bless,
Will
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